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Member (Idle past 158 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part II) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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We are able to explain the emergence of the process without needing an intelligent root cause. From a scientific perspective, that is all that matters.
But we shouldn't care as it pertains to our science experiments. I go to church and I work in a lab. I don't bring the beakers to the church and I don't bring the missals to the lab. That's how it should be.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 158 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Good, so we can get back to the topic ... Does the mechanism for developing chirality form a link between Panspermic Pre-Biotic Molecules - Life's Building Blocks (Part I) and Or are there still some blocks missing? Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5540 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.0 |
We have two competing hypotheses. Evolution works because the natural processes work vs evolution works because the Prime Mover created it to work. The first can be tested, the second carries an additional ontological entity and cannot. While you are right that Occam's Razor (OR) cannot choose which hypothesis is correct it does tell you which hypothesis is "more likely" correct. Defining OR as "choosing which is simpler" is common but incorrect. OR is a process of stripping away unnecessary or (as in this case) non testable ontological entities. Cutting away the Prime Mover ontological entity from hypothesis 2 leaves the more ontologically parsimonious (common: simpler) hypothesis 1. Hypothesis 1 is therefore more likely to be correct. Hypothesis 1 is not shown to be true, OR is not a truth table analyitic, just more likely to be correct. I stand by my correct use of OR and the result achieved in this specific case. Why should this unnecessary and non testable entity be considered? By what logic or evidence does this religious whim gain any credence?
No, not a perceived absence of evidence but an actual, demonstrable and total lack of evidence. Unless, of course, you are holding something back from the rest of us.
Now back to your regularly scheduled topic. Edited by AZPaul3, : clarity, I hope
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GDR Member (Idle past 104 days) Posts: 5409 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: |
I am in complete agreement with your post. I'm going to have to learn to write more clearly. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You already are, and you've come to the right place
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Tangle Member Posts: 8054 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
That is, of course, what got us into this mess in the first place. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 158 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Just a coupla quick quibbles:
No, it just suggests starting with the simple one first. Period. If that doesn't work you fall back on the more complex one, and if that doesn't work you start over.
Not really. What you have is "it appears that evolution works by natural processes, whether god/s set up those processes or not." You can test the first part, but you cannot test the second part, so it becomes irrelevant to the discussion on how evolution works.
So you perceive. Unless, of course you are omniscient or that you can demonstrate that you have looked everywhere inside and out of the universe and every subatomic particle. Many people will tell you they have perceived god/s, and they would disagree with your perception, so no, there is not a total lack of evidence.
Thanks. So to the question -- does this explanation for chirality link the two threads together or are there other steps\blocks that need to be filled in? Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5540 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.0 |
Why is that RAZD? Because unburdened of its excess baggage the more parsimonious hypothesis is "more likely" to be correct. Period.
Oh, come on RAZD. Peoples perceptions as evidence? You should know better. The plural of anecdote is not data. There is indeed a total, glaring, demonstrable lack of evidence (objective, recognizable, repeatable evidence not some flaky spiritual emotion-centered perception masquerading as "lets pretend it qualifies as" evidence) for any flavor, kind or style of supernatural anything. If my "perception" of this absolute lack of evidence for anything supernatural is in error then show me. I'm willing to revise my stand. No, don't answer. I know. Wrong thread. This is a good one. I will stop throwing sand in it.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 5540 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.0
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One block that still needs a more robust explanation, unless I've missed something - again, is the formation of the mononucleotides. At present we can only artificially produce these pre-cursors to nucleic acids. We haven't been able, to my knowledge, to whip up a brew and have these things spontaneously pop out the way we can with the aminos, monomers and other organics. This is critical if we are going to have the materials required to produce those first simple self-catalyzing, reproducing, short-chain RNAs. [ABE] Found something interesting. From 2011, Dr. David Deamer Pretty much the state of the discipline for abiogenesis as of then. Nicely detailed. Edited by AZPaul3, : add link
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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No. Because the simpler hypothesis is easier to investigate.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 158 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Update from Message 160 on the Life - an Unequivicol Definition thread:
Rather than go back to old posts to find this material I did a search on this topic to also see what the current status is. My original information involved the first paper\article, and I am pleased to see that further progress has been made on this. Start with these two articles (bold added for emphasis): Astrobiology: Test-Tube RNA, 2001 quote: I haven't found the Science article yet, perhaps you would like to try. Follow up research leads to (bold added for emphasis): The Daily Galaxy: "Evolution in a Test Tube" -Scientists Create Immortal Genetic Molecule, 2010 quote: So as long as there was substrate (food to metabolize) the RNA enzyme\catalysts replicated, competed, evolved. In other words QED -- independent self-replicating RNA molecules. For an overview of the RNA world current status see Wikipedia: RNA world (accessed Dec 2015) (bold in original): quote: [22] and [23] would be the Science articles related to the first article above; it doesn't appear that the wiki article has been updated with the information from the second article above. I'll have to look into that. See also Science: Mirror image RNA enzymes may hold clues to origin of life: quote: A possible path to chirality. In between self-replicating RNA and modern cell life would be self-replicating DNA molecules, with DNA viruses as 'living fossils' of their pre-cell existence. From http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=1288 quote: This isn't self-replication and it is inside a cell, but it is the virus acting alone to make its proteins, another step on the road to RNA world. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 158 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Apparently still true. Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 158 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From Message 6, Here's the Nature article on the Earliest life may be up to 4.28 billion years old. thread
Because we are looking at possible byproducts of life, rather than actual fossils, it is possible imho that they could be from the pre-biotic world of self-replicating molecules and other precursors to life formation. Enjoy by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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CRR Member (Idle past 996 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Pssst! Don't tell the creationists, but scientists don't have a clue how life began.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...-clue-how-life-began
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Coyote Member (Idle past 859 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
And creationists don't have a clue how life began, just unsubstantiated beliefs. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
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