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Author Topic:   Oh Good - Bart is back
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5743 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 16 of 51 (32237)
02-14-2003 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by derwood
02-12-2003 8:37 AM


Hi Page,

You say:

"Must be that genetic redundancy and the creatons...."

Since you require a bit of a read-up, why don't you go to the library and get the Nature (=leading scientific journal) paper by Gu et al, 2 January 2003. Hopefully it will give you a bit of an understanding of genetic redundancies.

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by derwood, posted 02-12-2003 8:37 AM derwood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by derwood, posted 02-14-2003 12:55 PM peter borger has not yet responded

    
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 17 of 51 (32256)
02-14-2003 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by peter borger
02-14-2003 11:20 AM


And this has what to do with your supposed 'papers' that question my methods?

And where are the papers dealing with creations?

I will look at the paper, however, considering your performance on such things as the citations disproving NRMs and Dr.Caporale's book, I have little reason to believe that this paper in any way supports any of your many disjointed claims.


This message is a reply to:
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derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 18 of 51 (32257)
02-14-2003 12:59 PM


You will have to be more specific. I just searched Pubmed for Gu 2003 and got nothing in Nature.
Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by peter borger, posted 02-15-2003 12:42 AM derwood has not yet responded

    
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5743 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 19 of 51 (32309)
02-15-2003 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by derwood
02-14-2003 12:59 PM


Role of duplicate genes in genetic robustness against null mutations
ZHENGLONG GU, LARS M. STEINMETZ, XUN GU, CURT SCHARFE, RONALD W. DAVIS & WEN-HSIUNG LI.
Nature, Vol 421, No 6918, P63.
This message is a reply to:
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derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 20 of 51 (32447)
02-17-2003 12:46 PM


From the abstract, emphases mine:
quote:

Here we show that there is a significantly higher probability of functional compensation for a duplicate gene than for a singleton, a high correlation between the frequency of compensation and the sequence similarity of two duplicates, and a higher probability of a severe fitness effect when the duplicate copy that is more highly expressed is deleted"

Comments:

Borger implies that this demonstrates the "redundancy" implicit in his made-up gibberish.

But is it?
Not really.

First of all, if the MPG already had all the "information" it needed, why would there be singletons at all (singletons being single-copy genes)? Does it not stand to reason that redundancy is worthwhile only if all the systems were redundant? Why only some?
The abstract also mentions that in yeast, about 1/4 of deleted genes wiht no phenotypic effects are compensated for by duplicate genes.

What about the rest?

And does this apply to multicellular eukaryotes as well?

Also of note - the compensatory gene will have a high sequene similarity to the deleted gene. That is, it will express a similar (and probably identical in function) protein. No big surprise there.

All in all, it looks as though this is another wild extrapolation.

I will coin a new term - the word "borger".

1. To "borger" something means to ascribe a meaning not indicated by the data.
(Although planetary weather data indicate that the predictions of "global warming" are coming to pass, anti-global warming advocates simply borger the data and claim that it shows that global warming is not occurring.)

2. To "pull a borger" means to conclude something not implied by the data, or to come to contrary conclusions in spite of the evidence. (The consensus of the panel was that nicotine is addictive, but the scientists employed by Big Tobacco pulled a borger and claimed that it is not.)

3. To "borger it", as in "borgered the data", means that data are wildly extrapolated or twisted to fit one's preconceived notions. Similar to 1. above, but more forceful. (The data clearly indicated the suspect's guilt, but his lawyer borgered it to make it appear that the data actually indicated that the victim had committed the crime.)

This is fun and easy.

=====================================================================
"There are only two groups of people that I can't stand:
Those who hate groups of people based solely on their heritage or culture, and the Dutch."
-Nigel Powers


Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by peter borger, posted 02-17-2003 5:29 PM derwood has responded

    
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5743 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 21 of 51 (32487)
02-17-2003 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by derwood
02-17-2003 12:46 PM


Dear Page,

Page: "There are only two groups of people that I can't stand:
Those who hate groups of people based solely on their heritage or culture, and the Dutch."
-Nigel Powers

PB: What about Hans Thewissen and Fred Spoor? They're Dutch too.

Just another of your generalism. Ever heard of nuance?

Anyway, have a nice day. And when you have scientific commments be my guest. Otherwise be silent.

best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by derwood, posted 02-17-2003 12:46 PM derwood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by derwood, posted 02-18-2003 11:59 AM peter borger has responded

    
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 22 of 51 (32561)
02-18-2003 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by peter borger
02-17-2003 5:29 PM


I take it that Borger has an aversion to comedies.

Nigel Powers is a fictional character, father of Austin Powers.

It was meant in jest.

Pity that Borger is so humorless.

Of course, this matches his inability to produce logical conclusions premised on science.

Then, one should wonder why Borger deigned not to reply to anything I had written pertaining to his latest "MPG-friendly" article...

[This message has been edited by SLPx, 02-18-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by peter borger, posted 02-17-2003 5:29 PM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by peter borger, posted 02-18-2003 6:09 PM derwood has responded

    
NeilUnreal
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 51 (32564)
02-18-2003 12:36 PM


It reminds me of another one I read (I can't remember where, in a math or logic book, I think):

"There are two kinds of people in this world: those who divide other people up into categories and those who don't."

-Neil


  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5743 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 24 of 51 (32601)
02-18-2003 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by derwood
02-18-2003 11:59 AM


Page says:

Pity that Borger is so humorless.

PB: Yes, you are one of the biggest laughs ever. Always nice and always funny.

Best wishes,

Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by derwood, posted 02-18-2003 11:59 AM derwood has responded

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derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 25 of 51 (32670)
02-19-2003 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by peter borger
02-18-2003 6:09 PM


I am still waiting for Borger to borger the paper indicating that in fact the alpha actinin genes show good evidence of arising via duplication and subsequent mutation, or any of the substantive issues I brought up above.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by peter borger, posted 02-18-2003 6:09 PM peter borger has not yet responded

    
wj
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 51 (32706)
02-19-2003 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by peter borger
02-01-2003 1:50 AM


Borger says in message #4
quote:
However, since we are all Panomo's let's have a look at your brilliant analysis concerning your utmost evidence of common descent:

http://www2.norwich.edu/spage/alignmentgam.htm

I have a couple of remarks and questions about your analysis:

Let start here:

1) Did you notice the sudden transition between Tob and Cap. Could you please indicate what it means according to you?


SLPx provided his answer at message #9.

Borger, are you going to provide your alternative meaning for the "sudden transition"? Are you going to move on and provide question 2?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by peter borger, posted 02-01-2003 1:50 AM peter borger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by peter borger, posted 02-25-2003 11:46 PM wj has responded

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 5743 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 27 of 51 (33198)
02-25-2003 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by wj
02-19-2003 9:24 PM


Hi WJ,

Borger says in message #4

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, since we are all Panomo's let's have a look at your brilliant analysis concerning your utmost evidence of common descent:
http://www2.norwich.edu/spage/alignmentgam.htm

I have a couple of remarks and questions about your analysis:

Let start here:

1) Did you notice the sudden transition between Tob and Cap. Could you please indicate what it means according to you?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SLPx provided his answer at message #9.

Borger, are you going to provide your alternative meaning for the "sudden transition"? Are you going to move on and provide question 2?

PB: I am still waiting for Page. He is going to provide the full terms for all abbreviations and a phylo-tree. [Still waiting Page]

best wishes,
Peter

[This message has been edited by peter borger, 02-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by wj, posted 02-19-2003 9:24 PM wj has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by wj, posted 02-25-2003 11:59 PM peter borger has not yet responded

    
wj
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 51 (33200)
02-25-2003 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by peter borger
02-25-2003 11:46 PM


quote:
PB: I am still waiting for Page. He is going to provide the full terms for all abbreviations and a phylo-tree. [Still waiting Page]

You do not appear to have requested these data on this thread. And you did not seem to need such before posting message #4. Why would you even require a phylo-tree if you believe that they are based on faulty Darwinian evolutionary theory?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by peter borger, posted 02-25-2003 11:46 PM peter borger has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by derwood, posted 02-26-2003 9:54 AM wj has not yet responded

  
derwood
Member
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 29 of 51 (33243)
02-26-2003 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by wj
02-25-2003 11:59 PM


Oh, bother
quote:
You do not appear to have requested these data on this thread. And you did not seem to need such before posting message #4. Why would you even require a phylo-tree if you believe that they are based on faulty Darwinian evolutionary theory?

Borger did not ask for such information.

It is simply the creationists deceptive way of trying to wiggle out of a tight spot.

Of course, Borger previously claimed to have read my and Goodman's 'stuff". If this were so, he would know what the "phylo-tree" is and what the codes stand for.

I have to conclude that Borger lied about having read any of my stuff. That or he simply did not understand it.

In addition, I have previously provided a link to another alignment which contained the codes used.

Looks like Borger has been getting advice from Sarfati and crew.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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peter borger
Member (Idle past 5743 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 30 of 51 (33306)
02-26-2003 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by derwood
02-26-2003 9:54 AM


Re: Oh, bother
dear Page,

Either you provide this board with all codes and a tree, or this is another one of your defeats.

I don't mind it is up to you,

Best wishes,
Peter


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by derwood, posted 02-26-2003 9:54 AM derwood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by wj, posted 02-26-2003 9:03 PM peter borger has responded
 Message 34 by derwood, posted 02-28-2003 9:28 AM peter borger has not yet responded

    
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