The Gap Theory Examined

well, no, there's not. the grammar of original should indicate a few things, but it's hard to tell. they didn't mark the ends of sentances and such. mine puts that second part in the middle of the sentance:

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Genesis 1:1-3, JPS

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When God began to create heaven and earth -- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep adn a wind from God sweeping over the water -- God said "Let there be light"; and there was light.

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i think it makes much more sense that way. and it's closer to recent translations of the earliest hebrew versions we have, so...

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אָרַח

I think you underestimate the majority of Christians. On the contrary, I think those who espouse the fringe theories such as the gap theory and YECism are most likely to be uninformed, biblically as well as scientifically.(Many of the unbelievers on this board are better-informed about the Bible than the YECists - or gapists.) Because that was what I asked for.It reflects on your ability to understand a simple question and to answer a simple question. The copy/translation reflects what the copyists/translators understood about the original texts. My point is that none of them saw fit to mention a gap - suggesting that the original texts do not mention a gap either.But I think we've danced around the maypole long enough. Any of our readers who aren't already bored to tears can see that the gap theory is a fringe theory, not based on scripture.

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1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

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1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

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1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

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According to Genesis, first God spoke light into existence, then the earth brought forth plants and then God made the sun.According to science, the sun came first, then its light shone on the earth and then plants grew.Question 1: How can you reconcile the Biblical order with science at all?Question 2: Since your "gap" is inserted before any of this happened - i.e. before Gen. 1:2 - how does it help in the reconcilliation of the Bible and science?

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

no.no, he's pretty much spot on.

(Pssst. I'm trying to take the high ground here. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

i'm all about accuracy. you take the high road all you like, i'll stick to the route on the map.

It's strange highways for me.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I suppose you don't usually talk to people about these questions in daily life. The vast majority of people I've come across and which are "christians" go to church only for a christening or a wedding. Their knowledge of the bible is poor except where it relates to the various church holidays.The minority you speak of are church goers and they only go as far as hearing what the Pastor or Priest has to say on a given subject, which normally revolves around their immediate lives.Very very few are knowledable and actually make a point of studying these things or any other things that pertain to the bible. I know this because I am acquainted with many Pastors and Priests who tell me the same thing.Now, it may be that we're talking from two differnt cultural lifestyles, one being American (I presume) and the other being Portuguese. But I would say that realistically speaking most countries in the world, with the possible exception of America, fall into my statement.As for many of the unbelievers being more knowledgable on the bible and science than many christians, I absolutely agree with you. Many arguments could be avoided if that statement was false. Well, you are free to believe what you want, that doesn't explain away science. I absolutely agree with this statement, God created the heavens and earth in that very same way.When he said "let there be light" he wasn't creating it but allowing it to shine into the atmosphere again. No creating there. When he did so notice the earth already existed as well as the sun and stars (heavens). These were created in Genesis 1:1 as I've being saying all along. Notice again that "made" doesn't appear, just let there... No creating here again. The lights became visible again just as in verse 3. Since we've talked about the differences between "Create" and "Make" the concept isn't new to you. The sun, moon and stars were not created in day 4 they were created "in the beginning". So why does this verse appear here in day 4? Here, he regulated them in connection with the restored earth. Notice how this verse applies to regulating the seasons days and years. Nowhere does it mention creating them on the 4th day. Don't you think that even the ancients knew that for a plant to grow, it needs sunlight? So why the writing in this order? Were they stupid?
It says alot about our concept of them when you inteterpret these verses the way the mainstream does.Also how can there be a morning and evening or even a day as we know it, without light, the suns light that is?So where is the supposed contradiction, in the verses you supplied, with science?

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

You're dancing in circles. Where does Genesis say anything about "allowing it to shine into the atmosphere again"? You can't reach that conclusion unless you assume that the sun was already created.Let's try a slightly different tack: If you didn't know anything about science - how old the earth is, whether or not light comes from the sun, etc. - would you still make the same assumption? In other words, are you assuming a gap because it "fits" science, or are you concluding a gap, based on evidence? Notice arachnophilia's quote in Message 106:

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Genesis 1:1-3, JPS
When God began to create heaven and earth -- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep adn a wind from God sweeping over the water -- God said "Let there be light"; and there was light.

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No indication there that the sun was "already" created. First you made an unsubstantiated claim that there is a difference between "made" and "created". Now you are claiming that God saying "let there be light" was not an act of creation? You have three "different" concepts now, all describing exactly the same thing.Since I don't mind repeating myself, I'll repeat an example that I gave some time back:

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1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

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Notice the words "said", "make" and "created" - all describing the same act of creation. Genesis says plainly that the sun, moon and stars were created (= "made") on day 4. You can only assume they were created "in the beginning" by assuming that there was a gap. Dancing in circles. Both you and arachnophilia think I give Christians too much credit, so I will concede that a lot of Christians are stupid. Is it unrealistic then to think that some of the ancients might have been stupid too?They did, after all, write that plants grew before the sun was created/made. Why do you assume that they had any scientific knowledge at all? And why do you assume that scientific accuracy was even necessary to their purpose in writing Genesis? So, ancient Hebrew science is yet another area where you know better than the "mainstream"? Again, you are assuming that the sun was there on day 1, when the text says quite plainly that it wasn't there until day 4.The contradiction is between science and what the Bible says.I ask again, if you didn't know anything about science, would you still twist the Bible the way you do?And the light/plants/sun thing is only the beginning. Where's the scientific evidence of everything that happened during the "gap"? Were there not people and animals in the "gap-world"? Where are their fossils? How can we distinguish their fossils from those of the post-gap world? Geologically, where is the gap/post-gap boundary?Show us the scientific evidence of your "gap".

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I've made up my mind about you ringo, you are in fact obtuse.
Please tell our audience just what the words "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." mean to you?Answer that and maybe I'll continue answering your "very intelligent" posts.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Allow me to remind you that most Christians - including most theologians and Hebrew scholars - would agree with me. Are they all obtuse too? As I have already said, look at how it is rendered in the JPS:

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When God began to create heaven and earth -- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water -- God said "Let there be light"; and there was light.

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No pre-creation. No gap. No restoration.Clear enough? Will you answer Message 113 now?

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Maybe you didn't understand the question, explain the verse in your own words. Imagine this is a literature classroom and the teacher has aked you to explain in your own words, the contents and context of a particular phrase, to the rest of the class, explain what "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." mean to you.Interpret the phrase, it's easy. Explain what the words "in the beginning" + "god" + "created" + "the heavens" + "and the earth" mean, what exactly was created with the word "heavens" as well as "earth".This message has been edited by Jor-el, 17-July-2005 12:11 AM

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

I'm not going to play that game. I told you what Genesis 1:1 means to me.Why are you avoiding the topic? Address Message 113.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I'm not playing any game here, I never have. This not a playground for me. If I wanted to play games I wouldn't spend my time on this board. Now answer the question or don't bother anwering.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

The topic is "The Gap Theory Examined". I have asked you to address Message 113, concerning scientific evidence for the gap theory.If you want me to answer extraneous questions, you will have to show how they relate to the topic.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Reply and you'll get my answer, or is it that you can quote scripture but not explain it?

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.