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Author Topic:   Biogenesis
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 9 of 312 (473022)
06-26-2008 3:06 PM


While in school I learned about Pasteur's experiments on spontaneous generation, so you can hardly claim it's being kept out of schools.

Life doesn't have any magical qualities though - it's essentially just self replicating chemicals. There's nothing in science that says it can't come about naturally. Spontaneous generation (what you are thinking of) is referring to people who used to think that fully developed life could generate from nowhere, such as flies being born from rotting meat, etc.

It has nothing to do with the formation of self-replicating chemicals.


Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-26-2008 4:46 PM Alasdair has responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 14 of 312 (473038)
06-26-2008 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by AlphaOmegakid
06-26-2008 4:00 PM


Attaching an insult to an otherwise sound argument doesn't make it an ad hominem. When the insult is a premise of an argument, it is.

For example:

You are a stupid closed minded religious nut. therefore, you are wrong.

That's an ad hominem.

This isn't:

You're wrong for reasons A, B, and C, you stupid closed minded religious nut.

(although it is being unnecessarily rude)

For the record, all of Taz is saying is correct. I was taught about Pasteur's experiments in 7th grade science class. It has been in every one of my biology textbooks.

Did you miss biology class?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-26-2008 4:00 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-26-2008 5:00 PM Alasdair has responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 17 of 312 (473043)
06-26-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AlphaOmegakid
06-26-2008 4:46 PM


quote:
For all of you who keep referring to Pasteur's experiments, I have not made a claim about Pasteur's experiments. This is strawman argument. My claim was about the law of biogenesis being taught in schools.

Pasteur's experiments is the basis of the "law of biogenesis" you are referring to. It's true, yes - fully developed organisms cannot spring from non life.

quote:
Again, another strawman argument. I certainly said nothing about magic. If you are referring to God, or the supernatural, I personally don't think there is anything "magical" about God. In fact He condemns magic. Magic is about illusions not reality.

I was being a bit silly - what I meant is that there is nothing inherently different from a molecule that is part of a living organism and a molecule that is not. There's nothing special.

Now to address your point, Life is not "essentially just self replicating molecules." In any life form, even the smallest known living cells, most of the molecules are not self replicating. If this is indicative of what you have been taught, then you are making my case well.

What? The defining quality of life is self-replication.

I'm afraid the law of biogenesis (which came from science) does say that life cannot come from non-living mater. I'm sorry, but that is scientific. You may mean that there is nothing in science that makes any law of science absolute. If that's what you meant, then maybe I'll agree with you. However, the law does exist, and it does stand until further observations refute it.

I still haven't seen the existence of this law except from your assertion. All experiments and observations made have been "fully developed life doesn't just pop out of nowhere" - IE spontaenous generation - never "organic matertial cannot form from non organic material". Can you find an up to date, relevant source that says that biogenesis is indeed a scientific law?.

That's a nice try, but again a strawman. I have said nothing about spontaneous generation. But since you brought it up, I will. Abiogenesis is the theory that life can come from non-living chemicals. Spontaneous generation is the observation(s) that supported that theory. You don't falsify observations. You falsify theories. Abiogenesis was falsified.

The "law of biogenesis" that you keep on bringing up is referring to spontaenous generation.

There is no law in science that says that organic matter can't form from inorganic matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-26-2008 4:46 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-27-2008 9:44 AM Alasdair has not yet responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 18 of 312 (473045)
06-26-2008 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by AlphaOmegakid
06-26-2008 5:00 PM


Re: Ad hominen attacks
Okay let's take 3 premises.

1) a = b

2) b = c

3) you are a moron.

therefore, a = c.

Is this fallacious reasoning?

Just attaching an insult to something doesn't make it an ad hominem and fallacious reasoning. It makes it rude and insulting, but not logically unsound. Maybe you should read the wiki article you linked so you can read about what it is and why ad hominem is fallacious. The points Taz makes do not revolve around insulting you - the insults were just tacked on the end.

Content hidden because topic derailment happening. Use "peek" to see "hidden" content, but don't reply to it. - Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide content, add note.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-26-2008 5:00 PM AlphaOmegakid has not yet responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 50 of 312 (473171)
06-27-2008 1:34 PM


Don't you hate when college kids first learn one or two logical fallacies and then feel the need to whip them out to every argument regardless of whether it applies or not?

that's a strawman!

that's ad hominem!

I was going to write something more substantial, but I don't think I can do a better job than Rahvin's last post. Have at you!


Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-27-2008 4:21 PM Alasdair has responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 52 of 312 (473192)
06-27-2008 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by AlphaOmegakid
06-27-2008 4:21 PM


I doubt that you "know debate logic very well" if you can't even grasp what an ad hominem is, one of the simplest of fallacies to understand and point out.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-27-2008 4:21 PM AlphaOmegakid has not yet responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 55 of 312 (473202)
06-27-2008 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by AlphaOmegakid
06-27-2008 5:32 PM


Re: The "point" of life
That would be all well and good if there were black and white easily defined categories of "life" and "not life" to put things into.

Problem is, that's not the case.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-27-2008 5:32 PM AlphaOmegakid has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 06-27-2008 6:12 PM Alasdair has not yet responded

  
Alasdair
Member (Idle past 3942 days)
Posts: 143
Joined: 05-13-2005


Message 79 of 312 (473351)
06-28-2008 1:49 PM


AlphaOmega,

Can you please provide a modern day reliable scientific resource that shows that "The Law of Biogenesis" is what you say it is?

Quoting Huxley doesn't count. I want a statement from modern day biologists.

Since when was "agent of death" included in the definition of life? Does that mean all predators aren't actually living?

You know that viruses reproduce, can evolve, and have DNA/RNA, right?


Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 07-11-2008 10:07 AM Alasdair has not yet responded

  
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