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Author Topic:   Questions Creationists Can't or Won't Answer
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 12 (15212)
08-11-2002 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rationalist
08-11-2002 11:24 AM


"Could provide us with the evidence that life can not originate from non-life via purely natural processes?
(HINT: there isn’t any:
http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/chaos_02.htm )"
--I wouldn't argue against the possibility of abiogenesis.
"How can a process that violates no laws of nature and seems to be directly be suggested by modern thermodynamics be proven catagorically not to have happened? (Appeals to incredulity are not considered evidence.)"
--First tell me what specific you are referring to. And if you are referring to the ToE, than I would have to say that if it "violates no laws of nature" than that still means nothing. It violates no law of nature that many things happen, this makes no comment on whether it has happened or not. And your thoughts on a direct correlation in proof of the ToE and the Thermodynamics makes no sense to me.
"Is there any direct scientific evidence whatsoever for the mechanisms by which a the Judeo-Christian God spontaneously produced all matter and life?"
--Nope, there isn't of course any 'direct' evidence that there ever was a Big Bang. And there also isn't evidence that in itself may be an attribution of a specific God?
"Can any description of supernatural creation as suggested in the Bible ever offer anything in the way of direct empirical scientific evidence, and not simply appeals to incredulity?
--In theory, there should be no such evidence.
"If abiogenesis and evolution are the same"
--Their not.
"How do we objectively test and falsify the hypothesis that a complex being with absolute power which is not evidenced by any known phenomena produced all natural phenomena?"
--I know of none.
"How do we objectively test the hypothesis that this same being, presumably required because all ordered complex things require a creator, does not lead to an was not itself created then in an endless succession of increasingly complex creators?"
--When someone develops a a test for examining the super-natural. (see above).
"How could we objectively test and falsify the hypothesis that one particular proposed invisible magical creator out of the multitude proposed by the host of religious across the globe happens to be the "correct" creator?"
--I would think you could just use reasonability and overview documents claimed to be inspired by that God and test for feasability.
"Or for that matter how could we objectively test and falsify the hypothesis that any of these invisible beings exist at all?"
--Knowing no direct evidence either way accept (as I know) the difficulty of having No creator in the initial cause of existence.
"Bottom line, the creation theory of abiogenesis is nothing more than a fairy tale."
--Actually its a story.
"It's supported almost exclusively by appeals to incredulity, and can even come remotely close to proving that there is no chemical process by which life can emerge."
--?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rationalist, posted 08-11-2002 11:24 AM Rationalist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-11-2002 7:40 PM TrueCreation has replied
 Message 6 by Rationalist, posted 08-12-2002 11:30 AM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 12 (15223)
08-11-2002 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by halcyonwaters
08-11-2002 7:40 PM


"TrueCreation, I believe you've just proven you're not really a creationist. "
--Nope, sorry, I'm a Creationist, and a Young Earth Creationist at that. If you have a 'why, then how' question, go ahead.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-11-2002 7:40 PM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-11-2002 9:13 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 12 (15306)
08-12-2002 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rationalist
08-12-2002 11:30 AM


"Self organizing systems tend to occur in thermodynamic systems far from equilibrium. I believe that would be the smoking gun. We have a process, we have nothing which prevents it from happening, we have a history of life on the planet that narrows timewise the further back we go. It is quite reasonable to fill in the blanks."
--I still am not understanding what you mean fully. Though if I correctly interpret your comment; If you are commenting on Evolutionary developement as in common decent with modification of all known species than this isn't going to be answered with what you have given. Whether Evolution happens today is not the same inquiry as to whether it has happend through all Earth history on the scale the ToE presents.
"Both the cosmic background radiation and the cosmic redshift are considered direct evidence of the Big Bang."
--This isn't direct evidence in the sence that it is evidence that only has been predicted by the event which the Big Bang explains. This doesn't mean that it has happend but is supportive that the interpretation the Big Bang gives is a likely explanation.
"That doesn't make sense. Absence of evidence for a thing can never be evidence for a thing."
--I agree. Though that isn't what I tried to say. You made reference to a specific God that there may be evidence for. And I can't find a rock that says 'created by the Christian God' or anything of that nature.
"You're right.. there should be no evidence. But why then do we find evidence of "natural" processes? "
--I never said that the process of deposition(?) wasn't a natural process, just not your hypothesis on the topic.
"There is no way to authenticate these documents, or anything that they say."
--Not with absolute authenticity, but just as your cosmic background radiation suggest a single point of spacial origin, this would be suggestive of such.
"There is no difficulty in the initial cause of existence that does not remain a difficulty even with a "creator" included. If you can have an uncaused cause, the universe can be uncaused, and if you can't.."
--The universe did have a cause, a 13-14 Ga year old event (in theory of course. To say that it didn't is playing semantics. And there is a difficulty to come about the existance of time-space without a creator.
"God can't be uncaused."
--Cause and effect wouldn't apply to a creation of God if he is infinite.
"A fairy tale is light on the details, heavy on the moralism, and unworkable from a practical or scientific standpoint. I think the label is appropriate."
--Well then its analogous to saying that 'Evolution is a religion'. When in that statement, if Evolution is a religion, theres no problem with that, the statement is futile and doesn't bring it down from a scientific perspective. Synonymous is my scenario.
"Sorry about the nature of the post. This is simply John Paul's nonsense written from a different point of view."
--Don't confuse me with John Paul and I won't confuse you with arrogance.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rationalist, posted 08-12-2002 11:30 AM Rationalist has not replied

  
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