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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 121 of 162 (170492)
12-21-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by contracycle
12-21-2004 10:51 AM


I was under the impression that reproduction was part of a formal defitnition of life, along with some form of energy transmission.
Women often have tubal ligations as a method of birth control. That doesn't mean they cease to be alive. And clearly they lack a "passion" to reproduce, or they would be doing so.
At any rate I'm not aware that any formal definition of life exists in the first place.

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 Message 120 by contracycle, posted 12-21-2004 10:51 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by 1.61803, posted 12-21-2004 4:26 PM crashfrog has replied
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 122 of 162 (170525)
12-21-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by crashfrog
12-21-2004 3:27 PM


no formal definition, just properties of life
1. Order
2. Reproduction
3.Growth
4. Energy utilization and metabolism
5.Response to environment
6.Homeostasis
7.Evolutionary adaptation
8.Movement

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2004 3:27 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 123 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2004 4:32 PM 1.61803 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 123 of 162 (170535)
12-21-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by 1.61803
12-21-2004 4:26 PM


How can movement be a property of life when so many organisms are sessile?

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 Message 122 by 1.61803, posted 12-21-2004 4:26 PM 1.61803 has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 124 of 162 (170539)
12-21-2004 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by crashfrog
12-21-2004 4:32 PM


Look it up in your freshman biology book. (just kidding) You answered your own question. "a property" not all organisms share all properties. But as in medicine there are exceptions to every rule.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 125 of 162 (170631)
12-22-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by 1.61803
12-21-2004 4:37 PM


Well, when you called these "properties of life" that's not the impression you gave, now is it?
What are the minimal properties that all living things share? None of the rest of the properties are relevant. Some living things are blue; we wouldn't say blueness was a property of life.

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 Message 124 by 1.61803, posted 12-21-2004 4:37 PM 1.61803 has replied

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 Message 126 by 1.61803, posted 12-22-2004 12:28 PM crashfrog has replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 126 of 162 (170741)
12-22-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by crashfrog
12-22-2004 12:37 AM


Name a sessil organism that does not move. edit to add:In fact name me an organism that does not have the properties I listed.
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 12-22-2004 12:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 12-22-2004 12:37 AM crashfrog has replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 127 of 162 (170860)
12-22-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by 1.61803
12-22-2004 12:28 PM


Name a sessil organism that does not move.
All sessile organisms do not move; that's what "sessile" means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by 1.61803, posted 12-22-2004 12:28 PM 1.61803 has replied

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 Message 128 by 1.61803, posted 12-22-2004 3:58 PM crashfrog has replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 128 of 162 (170889)
12-22-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
12-22-2004 3:15 PM


Sessile means staying put not that they dont move.
Trees are sessile, yet they move they're branches to collect more light.
Sponges are sessile, yet the move they're polyps to filter sea water.
Corals as well move they're polyps.
Sessile means they have established a nitch that does not require them to roam about, but it does not mean the organism does not have moving parts or that it does not move in it's own place of dwelling.
So technically Sessile organism do move, just not from the place they reside. Of course I am being nit picky but you were the one that challenged the properties of life I listed. Merry Christmas Crash, I know your atheist but I have a feeling you celebrate anyways

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 129 of 162 (170898)
12-22-2004 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by 1.61803
12-22-2004 3:58 PM


Trees are sessile, yet they move they're branches to collect more light.
They might grow that way, but few trees have the ability to actually move.
Consider lichens, or algaes, that have no moving parts at all, except perhaps cellular ones. But then even non-living objects are in motion at the atomic level. Beyond being pedantic, I think you're equivocating on the term "movement".
But happy holidays, or whatever.

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1525 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 130 of 162 (170905)
12-22-2004 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by crashfrog
12-22-2004 4:09 PM


Lichens my ass
Lichens are sybiotic with fungi that posses hyphe which do move.
Plants "move" in response to light. Even trees do just very slowly. But time lapse photography will show you the Movement.
Movement is movement. I contend that movement is a valid property of life . And you can have the last word..ok thats my christmas present to you. ha ha ha.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by crashfrog, posted 12-22-2004 4:09 PM crashfrog has not replied

contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 162 (171206)
12-23-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by crashfrog
12-21-2004 3:27 PM


quote:
Women often have tubal ligations as a method of birth control. That doesn't mean they cease to be alive.
I was referring to species, types, groups, not individual beings. Virii are not alive as they do not metabolise anything, I understood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 12-21-2004 3:27 PM crashfrog has replied

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TheNewGuy03
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 162 (182572)
02-02-2005 1:12 PM


Hello!
I have returned!! I've done research, as you wished. Here's what I found:
Charles Darwin was daydreaming when he wrote that he could visualize "in some warm little pond," with all sorts of salts and electricity, the spontaneous generation of the first living cell.1 Darwin's dream of the magical powers of salts and electricity may have come from his grandfather. Mary Shelley wrote of him in 1831 in her introduction to Frankenstein. "They talked of the experiments of Dr. Darwin . . . who preserved a piece of vermicelli in a glass case, till by some extraordinary means it began to move with voluntary motion." She goes on to speculate that galvanism (electricity) was the extraordinary means.2All theories need testing, so I bought some vermicelli pasta, kept it in salt water in a test tube for a month, and never saw any motion, voluntary or otherwise. I also used a tesla coil to conduct "galvanism" through it to a fluorescent bulb. The bulb lit and the vermicelli eventually began to cook, but never came to life.
"Darwin's bulldog," Thomas Huxley, had a vision of himself on the early earth as "a witness of the evolution of living protoplasm from non-living matter."3 In Huxley's day, the cell was blissfully considered simply a blob of protoplasm. Huxley also may have read Mary Shelley's subtitle to Frankenstein, "The Modern Prometheus."2 Prometheus was the Greek mythical Titan, who formed a man of clay, then animated it. This myth may be the earliest reference to abiogenesis, the animation of inorganic materials. In order not to leave that possibility untried, I fashioned a clay man and directed the tesla-coil spark over it to light the bulb. The clay man was not animated.
Evolutionists currently invoke the "primeval soup" to expand the "warm little pond" into a larger venue, the oceans. They aim to spontaneously generate the first cell so they must thicken the salt water with (take a breath) polysaccharides, lipids, amino acids, alpha helixes, polypeptide chains, assembled quaternary protein subunits, and nucleotides, all poised to self-combine into functional cellular structures, energy systems, long-chain proteins and nucleic acids.4Then during an electrical storm, just the right mix of DNA, mRNA, ribosomes, cell membranes and enzymes are envisioned in the right place at the right time and the first cell is thunderbolted together and springs to life.5 That marvelous first cell, the story goes, filled the oceans with progeny competing in incredible polysaccharide, lipid, amino acid, nucleotide, and cannibalistic feasts. The predators thereby thinned the soup to the watery oceans we have today while the prey escaped by mystically transmuting themselves into the current complex animals and plants, or perhaps vice versa because no one was there to record it. We are assured by the disciples of Darwin and Huxley that the "once upon a pond" story to obtain a blob of protoplasm is still sufficient for the spontaneous generation of the cell as we know it today. All demur when asked for evidence. All balk when asked to reverse-engineer a cell in the laboratory in spite of the fact that laboratories rival nature and reverse engineering is orders of magnitude easier than engineering an original design. One wonders why they balk if cell stuff is so easily self-generated and carbon molecules seem to have such an innate tendency to self-combine.
To test simply the alleged self-combining tendency of carbon, I placed one microliter of India (lampblack) ink in 27 ml. of distilled water. The ink streaked for the bottom of the test tube where it formed a dark haze which completely diffused to an even shade of gray in 14 hours. The carbon stayed diffused, not aggregated as when dropped on paper. At this simple level, there is no evidence that the "primeval soup" is anything but fanciful imagination.
In science, the burden of evidence is on the proposer of the theory. So although the evolutionists have the burden of providing evidence for their fanciful tales, they take no responsibility for a detailed account or for any evidence demonstrating feasibility. Contrarily, they go so far as to imply that anyone holding them to the normal requirements of science is feebleminded, deranged, or evil. For example, Professor Richard Dawkins has been quoted as saying, "It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that)."6 Instead of taking proper responsibility for the burden of evidence, the evolutionist propagandizes by the intimidation of name calling.
To set a better example, let us take up the evolutionist's burden of evidence to see where it leads. Our first observation is that apparently all functions in a living organism are based largely upon the structures of its proteins. The trail of the first cell therefore leads us to the microbiological geometry of amino acids and a search for the probability of creating a protein by mindless chance as specified by evolution. Hubert Yockey published a monograph on the microbiology, information theory, and mathematics necessary to accomplish that feat. Accordingly, the probability of evolving one molecule of iso-1-cytochrome c, a small protein common in plants and animals, is an astounding one chance in 2.3 times ten billion vigintillion. The magnitude of this impossibility may be appreciated by realizing that ten billion vigintillion is one followed by 75 zeros. Or to put it in evolutionary terms, if a random mutation is provided every second from the alleged birth of the universe, then to date that protein molecule would be only 43% of the way to completion. Yockey concluded, "The origin of life by chance in a primeval soup is impossible in probability in the same way that a perpetual motion machine is impossible in probability."7
Richard Dawkins implicitly agreed with Yockey by stating, "Suppose we want to suggest, for instance, that life began when both DNA and its protein-based replication machinery spontaneously chanced to come into existence. We can allow ourselves the luxury of such an extravagant theory, provided that the odds against this coincidence occurring on a planet do not exceed 100 billion billion to one."8The 100 billion billion is 1020. So Dawkins' own criterion for impossible in probability, one chance in more than 1020, has been exceeded by 50 orders of magnitude for only one molecule of one small protein. Now that Professor Dawkins has joined the ranks of non-believers in evolution, politesse forbids inquiring whether he considers himself "ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked."
Let us proceed to criteria more stringent. For example, Borel stated that phenomena with very small probabilities do not occur. He settled arbitrarily on the probability of one chance in 1050 as that small probability. Again according to this more stringent criterion, we see that evolving one molecule of one protein would not occur by a wide margin, this time 25 orders of magnitude.9
Let us go further. According to Dembski, Borel did not adequately distinguish those highly improbable events properly attributed to chance from those properly attributed to something else and Borel did not clarify what concrete numerical values correspond to small probabilities. So Dembski repaired those deficiencies and formulated a criterion so stringent that it jolts the mind. He estimated 1080 elementary particles in the universe and asked how many times per second an event could occur. He found 1045. He then calculated the number of seconds from the beginning of the universe to the present and for good measure multiplied by one billion for 1025 seconds in all. He thereby obtained 1080 x 1045 x 1025 = 10150 for his Law of Small Probability.9
I have not been able to find a criterion more stringent than Dembski's one chance in 10150. Anything as rare as that probability had absolutely no possibility of happening by chance at any time by any conceivable specifying agent by any conceivable process throughout all of cosmic history. And if the specified event is not a regularity, as the origin of life is not, and if it is not chance, as Dembski's criterion and Yockey's probability may prove it is not, then it must have happened by design, the only remaining possibility.
Now to return to the probability of evolving one molecule of one protein as one chance in 1075, we see that it does not satisfy Dembski's criterion of one chance in 10150. The simultaneous availability of two molecules of one protein may satisfy the criterion, but they would be far from the necessary complement to create a living cell. For a minimal cell, 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations would be needed.5,10 If these raw materials could be evolved at the same time, and if they were not more complex on average to evolve than the iso-1-cytochrome c molecule, and if these proteins were stacked at the cell's construction site, then we may make a gross underestimation of what the chances would be to evolve that first cell. That probability is one chance in more than 104,478,296, a number that numbs the mind because it has 4,478,296 zeros. If we consider one chance in 10150 as the standard for impossible, then the evolution of the first cell is more than 104,478,146 times more impossible in probability than that standard.
Reproduction may be called a regularity because billions of people have witnessed billions of new individuals arising that way, and in no other way, for thousands of years. The origin of life was a unique event and certainly not a regularity. Therefore, according to mathematical logicians, the only possibilities left are that life either was generated by chance or by deliberate design. The standard for impossible events eliminated evolution so the only remaining possibility is that life was designed into existence. The probability of the correctness of this conclusion is the inverse of the probability that eliminated evolution, that is, 104,478,296 chances to one.
Although the certainty of design has been demonstrated beyond doubt, science cannot identify the designer. Given a designer with the intelligence to construct a cell and all life forms, it is not logical that he would construct only one cell and leave the rest to chance. The only logical possibility is that the designer would design and build the entire structure, the entire biosphere, to specified perfection. That seems to be as far as science can go.
Life was designed. It did not evolve. The certainty of these conclusions is 104,478,296 (1 followed by 4,478,296 zeros) to one. This evidence suggests a Designer who designed and built the entire biosphere and, for it to function, the entire universe. Primary and secondary sources from history properly provide additional information on the Designer because the biological sciences are not equal to that task.
References
1 Darwin, F., ed (1888) The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin, London: John Murray, vol. 3, p. 18.
2 Shelley, Mary W. (1831) Frankenstein: or, The Modern Prometheus, London: Henry Colburn and Richard Bentley, Introduction, p. 9.
3 Huxley, Thomas H. (1870) "Biogenesis and Abiogenesis" in (1968) Collected Essays of Thomas H. Huxley, vol. 8, Discourses Biological and Gelogical, New York: Greenwood Press, p. 256.
4 Behe, Michael J. (1996) Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, New York: Touchstone, pp. 262-268.
5 Denton, Michael (1986) Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Bethesda, Maryland: Adler & Adler, p. 263.
6 Johnson, Phillip E. (1993) Darwin On Trial, Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, p. 9.
7 Yockey, Hubert P. (1992) Information Theory and Molecular Biology, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 255, 257.
8 Dawkins, Richard (1996) The Blind Watchmaker: Why the Evidence of Evolution Reveals a Universe Without Design, New York: W.W. Norton & Co., p. 146.
9 Dembski, William A. (1998) The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance Through Small Probabilities, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 5,209,210.
10 Morowitz, H. J. (1966) "The Minimum Size of Cells" in Principles of Biomolecular Organization, eds. G.E.W. Wostenholme and M. O'Connor, London: J.A. Churchill, pp. 446-459.
This information came from the Institute for Creation Research, but it is nonetheless valid information. Please read before formulating an opinion.
Also, I've read Darwin's theories, and though he thought of evolution first, his theories are independent of that thought. Evolution is based around Darwin's opinion.
______________________________
Edited for correctness by TheNewGuy03
This message has been edited by TheNewGuy03, 02-02-2005 13:16 AM

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 Message 135 by AdminJar, posted 02-02-2005 1:21 PM TheNewGuy03 has replied
 Message 136 by crashfrog, posted 02-02-2005 1:31 PM TheNewGuy03 has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 133 of 162 (182575)
02-02-2005 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by TheNewGuy03
02-02-2005 1:12 PM


Be careful to attribute clearly
I suggest that the link to the material with your comments on it are more appropriate. Cut and paste jobs do now show that you understand the argument. In addition to make it clear that it is not your work you should have given the l ink up front.
If is up to you to show that you understand what you are posting.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 02-02-2005 13:20 AM

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1488 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 134 of 162 (182577)
02-02-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by contracycle
12-23-2004 7:01 PM


I was referring to species, types, groups, not individual beings.
Fair enough.
Virii are not alive as they do not metabolise anything, I understood.
I propose that anything that can evolve via the mechanisms of natural selection and random mutation, and that experiences decent with modification, is alive. That would include virii. (A position that I believe I came around to in a discussion with Quetzal and others, a while ago.) Does it include prions? I don't know. They don't seem to evolve or change that much.

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 162 (182578)
02-02-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by TheNewGuy03
02-02-2005 1:12 PM


Re: Hello!
Long cut and paste messages are against forum guidlines. If you have something to contribute, express it in your own words. Simply copying from another site tells us nothing, nor can we debate with websites.
It is acceptable to provide a link to what you believe is supporting data, but a post like the above is pointless as well in violation of forum rules and guidelines.
For information on how to create a worthwhile post, check out the links at the bottom of this message.

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This message is a reply to:
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