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Author Topic:   Problems with the first life
dandon83
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 138 (126511)
07-22-2004 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Dr Jack
07-21-2004 8:06 AM


At last I am a truth seeker!
As our prophet says(as God (ALLAH) wants him to say in explaining the holy quran):The truth is what the muslim is seeking for,where ever he found it he took it.

So finally ,I am seeking for the truth.So If you got it I would be thankful to take it-after you prove it-.

This message has been edited by dandon83, 07-22-2004 05:16 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Dr Jack, posted 07-21-2004 8:06 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by CK, posted 07-22-2004 6:24 AM dandon83 has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 3439 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 77 of 138 (126513)
07-22-2004 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by dandon83
07-22-2004 6:15 AM


Re: At last I am a truth seeker!
Your story was interesting but I'm sort of baffled what it has to do with science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by dandon83, posted 07-22-2004 6:15 AM dandon83 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by dandon83, posted 07-26-2004 4:49 AM CK has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1416 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 78 of 138 (126519)
07-22-2004 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by dandon83
07-22-2004 6:04 AM


Re: A ship without a maker!!
If there is anything science teaches us it is that proof by analogy is very, very weak proof indeed.

You believe in a god without a maker, how is that any less absurd?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by dandon83, posted 07-22-2004 6:04 AM dandon83 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by dandon83, posted 07-25-2004 5:04 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
gbunty
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 138 (127306)
07-24-2004 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by coffee_addict
07-14-2004 12:35 PM


Any good links?
Thank you for this. It is a good succinct outline.

Could you suggest some links to a few of the experiments cited?

Especially:

quote:
Stage 3 Self replicating molecules

Laboratory experiments have shown that nucleotide monomers can naturally assemble into RNA molecules without divine intervention. This process happens without the presence of cells or enzymes.

Stage 4 Assembly of pre-cells

Again, laboratory experiments have shown that lipids can fold and establish a self-contained environment in the center from the environment.


Thanks in advance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by coffee_addict, posted 07-14-2004 12:35 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 84 by Coragyps, posted 07-25-2004 2:39 PM gbunty has not replied

  
gbunty
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 138 (127307)
07-24-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by dandon83
07-19-2004 7:47 AM


Re: a primative chemical reaction !!
quote:
how could a mindless molecules know how to divide the cell into two similar cells??!how to know what essential components must exist in both to keep living??!!!!do you want me to continue??

Why would they have to? Do sodium and chloride molecules know that they need to get together to make salt? Do iron filings know they are attracted by magnets? Does a sheep know to grow wool to make clothes for humans?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by dandon83, posted 07-19-2004 7:47 AM dandon83 has not replied

  
dandon83
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 138 (127427)
07-25-2004 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Dr Jack
07-22-2004 7:12 AM


unity of universe
have you looked before at force laws in physics? did you see that coloumb ,magnetic,gravitational forces all have similar laws?
does the gravitational force law on earth differs from that on mars or any other planet or any place in the universe?

If you look carefully,you will see a unity in the universe . what can you conclude? I , conclude that it whole is someone's work.

I do not know what does ANALOGY mean .but if its meaning is (SIMILARITY) ; then I can say that science it self uses similarity -some times- to explain or prove things that are hard to be done in a direct way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Dr Jack, posted 07-22-2004 7:12 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-25-2004 8:26 AM dandon83 has replied
 Message 87 by Dr Jack, posted 07-26-2004 5:40 AM dandon83 has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 82 of 138 (127433)
07-25-2004 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by gbunty
07-24-2004 2:21 PM


Re: Any good links?
Sorry gbunty, but I'm afraid you're going to have to do the research yourself. I'm an old fashion college science student who doesn't do much research online. I don't trust most of the sources online, so I tend to go for books. I'll dig out some stuff on the subject later .


The Laminator

For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by gbunty, posted 07-24-2004 2:21 PM gbunty has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 83 of 138 (127451)
07-25-2004 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by dandon83
07-25-2004 5:04 AM


Re: unity of universe
have you looked before at force laws in physics? did you see that coloumb ,magnetic,gravitational forces all have similar laws?
does the gravitational force law on earth differs from that on mars or any other planet or any place in the universe?

If you are talking about the universe as we see it at its most basic level, then many if not most Theistic Evolutionists would certainly agree. In Message 55 I discussed where I personally se the Hand of the Designer.

But if you assume that is where GOD operated, that still allows Evolution, and even the initial creation of life to be simple chance events moderated by natural selection.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dandon83, posted 07-25-2004 5:04 AM dandon83 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 45 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 84 of 138 (127499)
07-25-2004 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by gbunty
07-24-2004 2:21 PM


Re: Any good links?
Gbunty - I'm not having much luck as yet with online references, though
http://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/
seems to get close to several abiogenesis topics like these.
I think that I've also seen papers along these lines at PNAS:
http://www.pnas.org/contents-by-date.0.shtml
If you register, they have free full-text for quite a long time interval. I'll look around there if I don't get too lazy.

Edit to add: the Szostak page has a lot of goodies, as pdfs, on their publications page.

This message has been edited by Coragyps, 07-25-2004 02:02 PM


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dandon83
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 138 (127649)
07-26-2004 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by CK
07-22-2004 6:24 AM


baffled !!!!!!!!!!!
It goes side by side with science. science is studying of the universe
so it will lead -surely- to the origion of every thing . which we do not agree with each other in cocnclusions we make from science . So one of us has some wronge understanding of the spirit of science, and i like to know who is that one.

This message has been edited by dandon83, 07-26-2004 03:50 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by CK, posted 07-22-2004 6:24 AM CK has not replied

  
dandon83
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 138 (127662)
07-26-2004 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
07-25-2004 8:26 AM


re; can you see without an I?
I have replied at you in the place you mentioned.

This message has been edited by dandon83, 07-26-2004 04:36 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-25-2004 8:26 AM jar has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1416 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 87 of 138 (127664)
07-26-2004 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by dandon83
07-25-2004 5:04 AM


Re: unity of universe
have you looked before at force laws in physics? did you see that coloumb ,magnetic,gravitational forces all have similar laws?

Yes, they're all root-squared laws - a fact that follows directly from conservation of energy.

If you look carefully,you will see a unity in the universe . what can you conclude? I , conclude that it whole is someone's work.

I see no reason to conclude that at all. An undesigned universe has to be consistent; a designed one does not.

I do not know what does ANALOGY mean .but if its meaning is (SIMILARITY) ; then I can say that science it self uses similarity -some times- to explain or prove things that are hard to be done in a direct way.

Scientists frequently uses analogy to explain things; science never uses analogy to prove things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dandon83, posted 07-25-2004 5:04 AM dandon83 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by dandon83, posted 07-26-2004 6:34 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 89 by dandon83, posted 07-26-2004 6:42 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
dandon83
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 138 (127671)
07-26-2004 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dr Jack
07-26-2004 5:40 AM


Re: unity of universe
An undesigned universe has to be consistent; a designed one does not.

how could it be?
if you ordered your hair, you will give it a certain shape then each single hair will contribute to the whole shape.

but if you did not , here, no unity will exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dr Jack, posted 07-26-2004 5:40 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dr Jack, posted 07-26-2004 6:44 AM dandon83 has replied

  
dandon83
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 138 (127674)
07-26-2004 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Dr Jack
07-26-2004 5:40 AM


Re: unity of universe
Scientists frequently uses analogy to explain things; science never uses analogy to prove things.

How?
scientist foud that cupper conducts electricity and cupper is a metal. they examined another metals and found the same property in them . and they conclude that all metals conduct electricity, and they announced this conclusion before testing the all known metals.

NOW, can you say they were wrong???


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Dr Jack, posted 07-26-2004 5:40 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1416 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 90 of 138 (127676)
07-26-2004 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by dandon83
07-26-2004 6:34 AM


Re: unity of universe
An undesigned universe has to be consistent; a designed one does not.

If the universe has originated by natural processes, then those processes must be consistent to produce complexity.

If the universe was designed, that designer could do anything they liked.

if you ordered your hair, you will give it a certain shape then each single hair will contribute to the whole shape.

Bad analogy. Styling your hair is imposing order on an existing and unordered object.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by dandon83, posted 07-26-2004 6:34 AM dandon83 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by dandon83, posted 07-28-2004 5:24 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
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