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Author Topic:   Thermodynamics, Abiogenesis and Evolution
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 128 (99676)
04-13-2004 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DNAunion
04-13-2004 9:54 AM


Hi, DNAunion!

Since we don't know how abiogenesis occurred, we can't know the thermodynamic implications. Abiogensis hypotheses might benefit from taking thermodynamic considerations into account, but we of course assume it followed the laws of physics, including the thermodynamic laws.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by DNAunion, posted 04-13-2004 9:54 AM DNAunion has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 23 of 128 (99714)
04-13-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by DNAunion
04-13-2004 2:48 PM


Let Confusion Reign
Hi, DNAunion!

This discussion has a similar feel to it. Nobody can figure out what point is being made, clarifications only introduce more confusion, an argument breaks out anyway, and in the center of the melee is...DNAunion.

2LOT, the other thermodynamic laws, the other laws of physics, govern all that happens in the natural universe. Abiogenesis happened in the natural universe, therefore it followed the laws of physics. Beyond that, we don't know much. There will be many scenarios we may be able to rule out because they violate one of more laws of physics, 2LOT perhaps among them, and in that sense 2LOT may be helpful to in constraining and helping to decipher the story.

It provides a nice sense of balance to know that the evolutionist side has its own Stephen ben Yeshua's and WillowTree's. So what Creationist position will you faux imitate next?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by DNAunion, posted 04-13-2004 2:48 PM DNAunion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by DNAunion, posted 04-13-2004 9:10 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 35 of 128 (99787)
04-13-2004 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by DNAunion
04-13-2004 9:10 PM


Re: Let Confusion Reign
Yes, yes, we know, you're once again the center of turmoil and completely blameless, the only one in the discussion with the intellect to comprehend your spectacular insights.

There is no more a 2LOT issue with abiogenesis than there is with any other chemical process. Abiogenesis obeyed the laws of physics. At best your difficult to decipher claims boil down to abiogenesis having to obey 2LOT, which I don't think comes as a particular revelation to anyone.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by DNAunion, posted 04-13-2004 9:10 PM DNAunion has responded

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 Message 36 by DNAunion, posted 04-13-2004 9:50 PM Percy has not yet responded
 Message 85 by Brad McFall, posted 05-04-2004 4:29 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 47 of 128 (99913)
04-14-2004 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by berberry
04-13-2004 11:43 PM


Re: Let Confusion Reign
berberry replying to DNAunion writes:

My only argument with you, DNA, is that I don't see it necessary that one should explain a mechanism by which abiogenesis could occur before one can consider the thermodynamic implications of abiogenesis.

Life is just complicated chemistry. Abiogenesis was also complicated chemistry. Chemistry obeys all laws of physics, including 2LOT (which began life as a chemical law, anyway). There are no "themodynamic implications of abiogenesis" that uniquely distinguish it from all other chemical reactions.

The entropy of chemicals is decreased when externally provided energy, such as from the sun or from geothermal sources or from a Bunsen burner, is stored in the form of chemical bonds. This is true for all chemical reactions, though it can often be hard to tell if overall entropy has increased or decreased, since most chemical reactions involve both the breaking and forming of bonds.

We're still learning what goes on in a modern cell, and studies of those chemical reactions do not attempt to track cellular chemistry on an entropic basis because they are very complicated with many unknowns.

While poking around on the Internet I found an interesting paper studying self-organizing and self-reproducing chemistry: Cellular Evolution in a 3D Lattice Artificial Chemistry.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by berberry, posted 04-13-2004 11:43 PM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by berberry, posted 04-15-2004 3:48 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 55 of 128 (99973)
04-14-2004 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by DNAunion
04-14-2004 1:43 PM


Re: Let Confusion Reign
DNAunion writes:

Uphill process can happen only if some mechanism coupling them to downhill processes is involved (or energy is provided by some other means).

Solar and geothermal energy was available. What's the problem?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by DNAunion, posted 04-14-2004 1:43 PM DNAunion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by DNAunion, posted 04-14-2004 2:20 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 63 of 128 (99993)
04-14-2004 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by DNAunion
04-14-2004 2:20 PM


Re: Let Confusion Reign
You know, some guys you piss off, they're just regular members, there's nothing they can do. Other guys, they own the joint.

Bye.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by DNAunion, posted 04-14-2004 2:20 PM DNAunion has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 69 of 128 (100264)
04-15-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by berberry
04-15-2004 3:48 PM


Re: Let Confusion Reign
The link works. I've been working at a remote site for the past couple weeks that has higher speed Internet than I have back home, and here the link loads in about 10 seconds. Back home it would probably take a minute or two.

I thought your characterization of 2LOT, including the bit of history, was pretty much on the mark. Once this is understood, then it becomes more clear that many of the examples used to explain 2LOT, such as cleaning a room or placing a jumble of coins in neat piles, are only useful as analogies, and poor ones at that.

You can probably see that your characterization is consistent with my earlier one where I said entropy increases when external energy becomes stored in chemical bonds. In other words, energy is concentrated more densely and across a steeper gradient than before, therefore entropy is lower.

But I still have to strongly disagree that the chemistry of abiogenesis possesses any unique characteristics that might make 2LOT any more helpful than for other chemical processes. Every chemical reaction since the beginning of time has obeyed 2LOT, including abiogenesis.

It's important to keep in mind that Creationists focus on 2LOT only because it can convince a lay audience in about 30 seconds that there's sometthng rotten in the Denmark of evolution, while correcting the misunderstanding is very difficult. There is no kernel of truth at the center of the Creationist foray into thermodynamics.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by berberry, posted 04-15-2004 3:48 PM berberry has not yet responded

    
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