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Author Topic:   Converting raw energy into biological energy
kuresu
Member (Idle past 1414 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 241 of 314 (420021)
09-05-2007 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:26 PM


Re: Behe's Balderdash II
You fail to understand.

By discovering possible pathways we have evidence of how it may have actually happened.

Why do you assume that there were prebiotic organisms?

No one does. It's a contradiction. Nice straw man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:26 PM Rob has not yet responded

kuresu
Member (Idle past 1414 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 242 of 314 (420022)
09-05-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:24 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCI
You do realize that all those articles that have been cited aren't theories?

Again, you have a straw man.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:24 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:53 PM kuresu has responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 243 of 314 (420023)
09-05-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:26 PM


Rob's Balderdash XCII
Why do you assume that there were prebiotic organisms?

Now, hold on a second here, Kuresu. I don't think we have Rob on record re: the origins of life.

Rob. I think we all know by now that abiogenesis isn't your cup of tea.

So. In your opinion. How exactly did we get here?


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Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 09-05-2007 10:41 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 244 of 314 (420024)
09-05-2007 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by molbiogirl
09-05-2007 10:32 PM


looking at 3.5 to 3.8 Billion years ago.
I found this while wandering and can't remember if it was shown as one of the links yet.

The geological record of life 3500 MA ago: Coping with the rigors of a young earth during late accretion

It shows that we can trace life back at least to the period of late heavy bombardment.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 10:32 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 245 of 314 (420025)
09-05-2007 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by molbiogirl
09-05-2007 10:25 PM


Re: Evidence, Comin' Right Up!
Thermophiles:

Here's what I said in the OP:

Molbiogirl and Doddy were both suggesting (presupposing) that biological function had a precursor to fermentation, photosynthesis and respiration. But there is no such precursor found in the fossil record or anywhere else that I am aware of.

They and Matt P, had been referring to self replicating enzymes that rely on these systems of energy conversion and other cell processes for which they exist, and are therefore not self replicating. I made the point to molbiogirl that they are not self anything...

In message 190 you were talking about thermosynthesis, i.e. free energy gain from thermal cycling. Now that I'd like to see.

Now you're being revisionist, and invoking respiration that is still ATP dependant, and also in need of andenine for it's usual biological DNA and catalyitic functions?

Slow down... you always latch on to a response too soon. First it was self replicating DNA, and then it was viruses, then adenine was adenosine, and now this?

Stop smoking those prebiotic chemicals.

As I said to jar ealier... who cares what the source of energy is?

Your example is hardly prebiotic. But it is the best example as far as biological life goes, since it is the simplest.

You know, I really want to express my love for you guys, and that of the truth, but you've forced me to be quite adament. You're not very nice...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 10:25 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 11:04 PM Rob has responded
 Message 252 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 11:19 PM Rob has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 246 of 314 (420026)
09-05-2007 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by kuresu
09-05-2007 10:31 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCI
Kuresu:
You do realize that all those articles that have been cited aren't theories?

Yes, absolutely...

They are real research... done on real theories. But not real evidence. And the research done cannot itself be the evidence.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 10:31 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 11:04 PM Rob has responded

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 314 (420027)
09-05-2007 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:17 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCI
Is evidence neccessary for credulity?

I dunno, you tell me -- you're the one who believes that snakes talk people into eating fruit and people turn into pillars of salt.


I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:17 PM Rob has not yet responded

kuresu
Member (Idle past 1414 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 248 of 314 (420028)
09-05-2007 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:53 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCI
For the last time, the research is being done on potential pathways for the genesis of AMP and ATP and other key molecules.

The potential pathways are evidence of how it might have happened.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Its not evidence on how it did happen, no one is claiming that. Its evidence on how it might have happened.

And the research done cannot itself be the evidence

Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:53 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 258 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:41 PM kuresu has responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 249 of 314 (420029)
09-05-2007 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:49 PM


Rob's Balderdash XCIII
invoking respiration that is still ATP dependant (sic)

Dear. Anaerobic sulphate reduction is not respiration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:49 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:12 PM molbiogirl has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 250 of 314 (420031)
09-05-2007 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by molbiogirl
09-05-2007 11:04 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCIII
Molbiogirl:
Dear. Anaerobic sulphate reduction is not respiration.

Oh dear... now what'l I do?

Many of the hyperthermophiles Archea require elemental sulfur for growth. Some are anaerobes that use the sulfur as an electron acceptor during respiration instead of oxygen.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile )

Cell respiration is a process that arose early in the evolution of life. The first cells that experienced respiration lived in an environment void of oxygen. Some of these first organisms were called thermophiles
( http://hometown.aol.com/labbfree/CELLRESPIRATION.html )

Molbiogirl... is your Phd in molecular biology? Or do you even have one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 11:04 PM molbiogirl has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by anglagard, posted 09-05-2007 11:26 PM Rob has responded
 Message 256 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 11:30 PM Rob has responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 251 of 314 (420032)
09-05-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by kuresu
09-05-2007 11:04 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCI
Rob:
And the research done cannot itself be the evidence

Kuresu: Why?

Because I could do researrch on how the pink unicorn created the universe and call it evidence. And lo and behold... I could make it internally coherent too!

They would buy it by the millions....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by kuresu, posted 09-05-2007 11:04 PM kuresu has not yet responded

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 1543 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 252 of 314 (420033)
09-05-2007 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Rob
09-05-2007 10:49 PM


http://www.foresight.org/conference/AdvNano2004/Abstracts/Muller/index.html

We define a molecular heat engine as a molecule that can convert heat into free energy when thermally cycled or when placed in a thermal gradient.

A detailed model for a molecular heat engine is constituted by the pF1 enzyme, a proposed progenitor of the homologous (1) alpha and beta sub units of the F1 moiety of the contemporary ATP synthase enzyme (2-4). In the thermosynthesis model for the origin of life, pF1 synthesizes peptide and phosphate bonds by creating a local environment in its enzymatic cavity that permits dehydration reactions. The product containing the bond has a higher free energy in water (5), and can therefore, because of energy conservation, not directly be released. Instead, it remains strongly bound, entering the medium only upon a thermal unfolding of pF1. The binding change mechanism as effected by contemporary ATP synthase (6) is identified as a relic of this so-defined thermosynthesis mechanism.

In the model the thermal cycling is attributed to - macroscopic - convection of the medium in which the pF1 is suspended.
Consider as example present day F1 ATP synthase as a heat engine. The presence of nucleotides increases its unfolding temperature by ~10°C. The delta H for the unfolding of the individual alpha and beta subunits is ~660 kJ/mole (7-8). At an unfolding temperature of 60°C (330°K) the Carnot ratio predicts an available work of

(delta T / T) delta H = (10 / 330) 660 = 20 kJ/mole,

a value comparable with the free energy of a peptide and phosphate bond.

Using only one enzyme to begin with, thermosynthesis by a molecular heat engine allows a very simple model for the emergence of the bioenergetic chemiosmotic machinery and, more generally, for the origin of life (2-4).

Abiotic synthesis of organic compounds from carbon disulfide under hydrothermal conditions, Rushdi AI, Simoneit BR, Astrobiology, 2005 Dec;5(6):749-69

Abiotic formation of organic compounds under hydrothermal conditions is of interest to bio, geo-, and cosmochemists. Oceanic sulfur-rich hydrothermal systems have been proposed as settings for the abiotic synthesis of organic compounds. Carbon disulfide is a common component of magmatic and hot spring gases, and is present in marine and terrestrial hydrothermal systems. Thus, its reactivity should be considered as another carbon source in addition to carbon dioxide in reductive aqueous thermosynthesis. We have examined the formation of organic compounds in aqueous solutions of carbon disulfide and oxalic acid at 175 degrees C for 5 and 72 h. The synthesis products from carbon disulfide in acidic aqueous solutions yielded a series of organic sulfur compounds. The major compounds after 5 h of reaction included dimethyl polysulfides (54.5%), methyl perthioacetate (27.6%), dimethyl trithiocarbonate (6.8%), trithianes (2.7%), hexathiepane (1.4%), trithiolanes (0.8%), and trithiacycloheptanes (0.3%). The main compounds after 72 h of reaction consisted of trithiacycloheptanes (39.4%), pentathiepane (11.6%), tetrathiocyclooctanes (11.5%), trithiolanes (10.6%), tetrathianes (4.4%), trithianes (1.2%), dimethyl trisulfide (1.1%), and numerous minor compounds. It is concluded that the abiotic formation of aliphatic straight-chain and cyclic polysulfides is possible under hydrothermal conditions and warrants further studies.

Sulphur. Thermosynthesis.

Starting to get the picture, precious?

More cites to come!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 10:49 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:25 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 253 of 314 (420034)
09-05-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by molbiogirl
09-05-2007 11:19 PM


Molbiogirl:
Starting to get the picture, precious?

I saw it a long time ago...

Let me know when it's more than a model (ie. when you actually have the picture).

But there's no doubt you're a believer!

You look at proposals as though they are evidence!

ps. I didn't bother to highlight the relevant words like proposed and such...

...and don't call me precious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by molbiogirl, posted 09-05-2007 11:19 PM molbiogirl has not yet responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2306
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 254 of 314 (420035)
09-05-2007 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Rob
09-05-2007 11:12 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCIII
Rob writes:

Molbiogirl... is your Phd in molecular biology? Or do you even have one?

I'd like to ask you the same question Rob. :)

So is your PhD in molecular biology? Or do you even have one?

(sorry mods, couldn't resist)

If your PhD is in the Pre-Socratic style of rhetoric, I'd ask for a refund. :p

Edited by anglagard, : sophistic ruminations


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Rob, posted 09-05-2007 11:12 PM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4750 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 255 of 314 (420036)
09-05-2007 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by anglagard
09-05-2007 11:26 PM


Re: Rob's Balderdash XCIII
Never claimed to have one...

I admitted a long time ago that I am a truck driver; 37yrs old, 3 kids, married, high school degree (from a continuation school), 10th grade biology was as far as I went.

Never cared much for school. Always got the impression they thought they knew more than they actually do...

I've moderated that attitude some. I found that there are some people who actually tell the truth. So I joined!

You gotta point?


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