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Author Topic:   Transition from chemistry to biology
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 286 of 415 (513496)
06-29-2009 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Peg
06-29-2009 7:41 AM


Interactions
Aah Peg,
You're ignoring the key word. Take another look.
Dr Adequate writes:
Because it is impossible to miraculously breath life into non-living things, since the necessary condition for life is a set of chemical interactions, not miracle breath.
Interactions, yes? The chemicals may or may not be present (and I have a strong feeling that many chemicals start to break down immediately after death), but the processes by which they interact are no longer functioning.
Is that really so hard to grasp?
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Peg, posted 06-29-2009 7:41 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Peg, posted 06-29-2009 9:41 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 327 by traste, posted 07-05-2009 9:42 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 299 of 415 (514049)
07-03-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Peg
06-29-2009 9:41 PM


Re: Interactions
I missed this first time round,
quote:
its not hard to grasp, i completely agree which is why it is impossible that the chemicals can miraculously 'react' to bring something to life
Except that you cited the fact that dead things don't spontaneously spring back to life as proof that life could not start unaided in the first place. This is like suggesting that if a certain chemicals fail to react in one circumstance, they must fail in all circumstances, whatever the conditions. This is clearly a false premise.
No-one is suggesting that the conditions for the first life were anything like the conditions inside a dead human body, so you are wasting your time with this false comparison.

quote:
spontaneous generation/abiogenesis was demolished by Pasteur's experiments a long time ago.
No it was not. Pasteur didn't take early Earth conditions into account in his experiments. He didn't do this because he was not investigating abiogenesis.
You can't compare the conditions for early life with a bit of meat in a jar. You are conflating two different phenomena.
quote:
It certainly does not occur in our world today, and you would think that if anything, the probablility of it occuring in a world full of life and with all the right conditons, it would happen.
No, you would think the opposite. Primitive life would have no toehold on a world already crowded with much more advanced organisms. You can't compare early conditions for life with a modern Earth with wildly differing chemistry and a super-abundance of highly evolved competition in the form of more advanced life.
None of your points address the fact that Earth at the time when abiogenesis is theorised to have taken place was a very different place. There is no reason why we should expect a dead body, a bit of meat in a jar or any part of the modern earth to replicate the process.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : Expanded post.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Peg, posted 06-29-2009 9:41 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 10:12 AM Granny Magda has replied

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 301 of 415 (514053)
07-03-2009 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Peg
07-03-2009 10:12 AM


Re: Interactions
I'm not sure what you mean by this;
quote:
but those chemicals do not interact with each other the way abiogenesis would suggest they do.
What exactly do you think abiogenesis should make them do? The conditions are different now, abiogenesis is probably impossible now (also see edited message above).
quote:
If life is a result of a chemical reaction, why should it ever end, why should those chemicals stop interacting and cause death???
That's another question and a complicated one, which I am not best equipped to help you with. Suffice to say that it poses no problem for the beginning of life.
quote:
and what was the force that got them interacting in the first place????
That is exactly what abiogenesis researchers are trying to find out. You shouldn't write off their efforts so soon.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Peg, posted 07-03-2009 10:12 AM Peg has not replied

Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 343 of 415 (514319)
07-06-2009 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Dr Jack
07-06-2009 6:02 AM


Re: Your confidinced troubled me
Hi Mr Jack,
The quote is attributed to New Scientist, June 25, 1981, p. 828, on various web pages. The online archive for NS does not stretch back this far though.
My suspicions are raised by this fact that the quote is taken from Francis Hitching's book, The Neck of the Giraffe, a dishonest piece of creationist garbage. I don't have a copy, but one web page presents the quote thus;
"6 And Britain's New Scientist observed that "an increasing number of scientists, most particularly a growing number of evolutionists . . . argue that Darwinian evolutionary theory is no genuine scientific theory at all. . . . Many of the critics have the highest intellectual credentials." The Neck of the Giraffe, p. 65.
Note that the quote seems to have been heavily cut up, presumably by Hitching. All the sources I've seen repeating it have done so without indicating the edits. All rather suspicious...
Can anyone shed any more light on this?
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Dr Jack, posted 07-06-2009 6:02 AM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Dr Jack, posted 07-06-2009 8:55 AM Granny Magda has not replied

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