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Author Topic:   The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution
CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 60 of 300 (421172)
09-11-2007 11:55 AM


I find it amusing that evolutionists insist that abiogenesis be taught right alongside evolution as "fact" in the schools. The two go together and always have.
But anytime abiogenesis comes up in an argument against evolution, it's "See how ignorant and uneducated you are! You don't even know that evolution and abiogenesis are two completely different theories!"
And it's obvious why they don't like the two to be linked. Both are flawed, but abiogenesis is sooooo obviously flawed they don't like having to defend it.
And the Big Bang? Well, just look at the history. All three of these stories were made up and spread about and shoved down everyone's throat by the same bunch. The Big Bang was indeed resisted, for good reasons and for silly reasons. Only after it was demonstrated that it was sufficiently compatible with atheism was it accepted.
Seriously, the only thing really tipping the scales in favor of the BB vs. the steady state at all is the redshift first observed by Hubble. There was no new evidence submitted at all during the decades it took for it to become accepted. (Some will say the steady state has a conservation of energy problem, but BB has more than one of these and they're all several orders of magnitude larger. It's like comparing a bucket of water to the Indian ocean!)
And don't forget the oldest member of the family: gradualist 'geology'. Have layers ever been observed building up gradually over time. Yes! The 'tels' in the Middle East were all built up this way. They're all man-made. Other than that, you won't see land building up the way gradualist geology speculates.
What does every member of the group have in common? (I mean those who actively promote the 4 stories of origins, not the unfortunate folks who have been misled.) They all desire that the stories they invent should be accepted, and historical records should be rejected. Historical records from all over the world. And they appeal to our arrogance, telling us our ancestors were "primitive" and "superstitious", but in this age we can be "enlightened".
Now of the four, the case for evolution is actually the strongest. Not because it is valid; rather because it it made 100 different ways using everything they can dream up. And to thoroughly debunk it, they claim you must debunk each and every piece of it. But think about it. If there's any lifeform, even just one - any lifeform that evolution can't explain, it fails as an explanation of origins. Even a single organ that is beyond evolution to bring about demolishes it, right?
"Oh no!" they'll respond. And they'll rant or talk down to me like I'm a kindergartener depending on which one is first. Yes, they will. They won't be able to stop themselves. I'm not the first to say evolution could be refuted in this way. No, Charles Darwin himself wrote it into the book they consider to be sacred text. And they'll read this, and know he wrote it, and still come tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Why? Because the only way to defend evolution is to snow the opposition under with a vast, unending multitude of lies. And once a person sees that all it takes is one single link to break the chain, it's not hard at all to find such a link. For each link is very weak. They don't bind people with the strength of this chain; rather they weigh them down with its sheer bulk.
And all a person has to do is look around this forum right here to see that this is so. How does any discussion of an evolutionary topic go? Snow the person under with tons of nonsense. Oh yes, and redefine terms a dozen times or more. There isn't a single link in the whole long chain of crud that can't be broken, and they themselves must know this - no question.
Now why must these things all be grouped together and taught as fact? Why is must it be illegal to mention any hint of weakness in any of these "theories? This is not the case with sciences dealing with present-day events. It's not the case even with history dealing with recent events. One can discuss the controversy about the Kennedy assassination in class, no problem. Question the textbooks' stories on Ben Franklin or Tom Jefferson? Sure, why not. But question a sacred tenet of evolution? No way! (I don't mean to say a child will be jailed for asking, but the teacher is required to only affirm the doctrine, even when it is out-of-date by decades.)
And it's no surprise that the same people who accept any one of these things will usually accept all four. For they form an extended chain. If a person finds one to be in error, they will surely question the other three. Now I readily concede that persons do exist who mix things up and accept part of this chain while rejecting other parts. I also concede that this is a trick I could not pull off. But my point is that those who have rejected abiogenesis have at least questioned the other three issues.
One of my other favorite issues is the number of "scientists" they claim they have backing their side. Let's see now... I go to school, and they teach me lies. I go to college, and they teach me lies. College costs big money, but they don't appreciate that. They base my grade on whether or not I accept these lies. Not "can I remember and regurgitate them?" No. The issue is "do I believe them?" Why in the world should I pay one cent for such treatment?
Now not all professors are like that. In fact most are not. But there are enough to get the job done. They only need one solid barrier to keep you from getting your degree. (How well these people understand issues involving the number one!) And there goes the student's family's fortune down the drain. There are those who have braved the system and made it through, praise God for each one of them. But given alternatives, most folks choose a path of less resistance.
The weakness of the system is that people aren't immune to truth, and many catch it after they've already made it through the system. They have their own difficulties, of course.
Now I recommend to anyone who cares about these things that they pick the strongest part of the strongest of these four stories, and take a good close look at it. What assumptions does it require up front? Does it employ circular reasoning or any other logical fallacies? Is it based on solid science, or speculation? (I mean really solid - not just a reputation). If you didn't believe the evolutionist stories, would you interpret it the way they do?
Oh, and don't be intimidated by mumbo-jumbo. I haven't seen much at all that I couldn't have tackled when I was 12 years old, not even in real science. Okay, that's a trick statement. I was smarter then than I am now. But none of it's as hard as they make it out to be.
It bears repeating how weak abiogenesis is. The advocates of evolution are reluctant to include it, and that's a dead give-away right there. Darwin himself was reluctant to offer more than threadbare speculations about a primordial pond, and they haven't improved the case much. Sure they make a big deal about synthesizing compounds in a lab, and claim they're creating life... but is it so? Or is it more mumbo-jumbo?
Well, look into it. Look at the scale of the issue. It's like saying a toddler stacking one brick on top of another is building the Empire State Building. They're a long, long, long ways away. Farther actually, but I got tired of typing the word 'long'. And I'm talking about 'expert scientists' working with state-of-the-art equipment. Life only comes from life. That's a law of science. That's a well-established fact. Anyone disputing it has quite a large burden of proof (if you want to actually be scientific about it).
Now given a law of science that says one thing, why would people be adamant that it should be discarded, and frequently hateful toward persons who accept this law? Why would they claim it isn't so without presenting any serious evidence? Why would they... aw shoot, just watch what they do. It's often entertaining once you get past how pathetic it is.
...and we all know the reason why.

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Chiroptera, posted 09-11-2007 12:40 PM CTD has replied
 Message 62 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2007 2:21 PM CTD has replied
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2007 4:30 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 66 by Jazzns, posted 09-11-2007 5:16 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 67 by bluegenes, posted 09-11-2007 5:48 PM CTD has replied
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2007 6:13 PM CTD has replied
 Message 94 by Modulous, posted 09-17-2007 12:45 PM CTD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 70 of 300 (422167)
09-16-2007 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Chiroptera
09-11-2007 12:40 PM


Chiroptera:
quote:
Well, I agree that the two go together, but they remain very different things.
On the other hand, Big Bang and abiogenesis/evolution don't go together. They are totally, utterly unrelated subjects.
-
You may choose to view the speculations invented to replace the history of life and the speculations invented to replace the history of the rest of the cosmos as unrelated. Not everyone is required to make the same choice. I fail to see any legitimate reasons for doing so.
quote:
Huh. And you still seem to have a 12 year old's knowledge of the subject. Is that when you dropped out of school?
I can only wish I had. Actually, so long as I'm wishing I'll wish I could have opted out of learning so many lies. Lies are surely interesting to study, but we don't need quite so many specimens around.
And they should also have courses for budding young liars to improve their art. Mark Twain complained about the poor quality of lies in his day, and the situation is much worse now. They really shouldn't have ignored him - he knew very well what he was talking about.
Oh let's try to get a little more directly on-topic. The simplest way to see that the evolution of the cosmos is linked to the evolution of life might be to understand that life needs a place to evolve, and a time to evolve.
Survey the old 'ages' of the world and the universe. They started out saying 50 to 80 thousand years, as I recall. Then they found out evolution couldn't (even in their own eyes) get the job done in so short at time. They went to the cosmologists and asked for more time, and since cosmology hadn't discovered any limits at all - "Sure thing!" They asked the 'geologists' if it'd work. "Sure - we get our rock dates from your fossil charts anyhow, so if the fossils are older we can make our rocks older." Again and again it happened. The earth was said to be 200 million years old, then 500 million, then a billion!
How did it end? Did evolutionists find a way to squeeze in evolution and abiogenesis in the allotted time? Not hardly! What happened was the Big Bang replaced the Steady State, and one day the cosmologists said "No." The Big Bang means there's now a limit. They did foresee this. At the time they were making it up they checked and found out that evolutionists only needed a billion years for their story. They decided to give them plenty of extra time just to be safe: four billion years. Four times what they thought they'd ever need! But in just a couple of short decades... oops!
And that's not the only problem with asking for more time. The radiometric dates were all calibrated to match the 'fossil column' of their day. It was no easy job. If evolutionists want more time from geologists, they've got another thing coming. It'd mean tons and tons of work: recalibrating, revising, and inventing new stories to justify it. Who's going to pay for all that work?
Those who invent stories about the evolution of life could even be viewed as ungrateful from the other perspectives. 'Geologists' and 'cosmologists' both told their share of stretchers in order to support these stories. They conformed to request after request. What did they ever get in return? If they hadn't gone overboard and given so much to the cause, wouldn't it be much easier to change their stories?
Since the 1960's they haven't much bothered to ask for more (imaginary) time. They know they won't get it, and it's humiliating business begging for time.
Ironically, the problem is too much honesty. They've stretched "human evolution" alone back beyond the original "ages" of the earth. If they'd just learn to shut up and let on that it only takes a few thousand years at most, none of their followers would be any more likely to question things on that account.
Lest I forget, these ideas have all been linked together - not by creationists, but by evolutionists themselves who claim the cosmos "wants" to evolve life. That's why we have terms like 'stellar evolution' and 'chemical evolution'. Granted it's a small sect, but they are surely evolutionists. In my opinion, there are a lot more members of this sect "in the closet" - if you know what I mean.
And part of it's PR. By using the term 'stellar evolution' the cosmologist indicates that he is indeed a supporter of the other forms of evolutionism. That can't be bad for business...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Chiroptera, posted 09-11-2007 12:40 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 09-16-2007 9:32 AM CTD has replied
 Message 72 by Chiroptera, posted 09-16-2007 10:06 AM CTD has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 73 of 300 (422177)
09-16-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
09-11-2007 6:13 PM


Dr Adequate
quote:
But apart from very simple cases like this, it is true to say that we only ever observe organisms being produced by the reproduction of similar organisms.
Apart from simple cases? No, apart from any cases whatsoever. You talk as if life has been observed in "simple cases" arising from nonlife. It has not, and we all know it. I doubt anyone will have trouble understanding that, but in the end each individual who reads this thread will decide for themselves if you've met the burden of proof.
Make no mistake - I checked the link. Just how many orders of magnitude separate the simple molecular building blocks from a living cell?
Or even a dead cell for that matter! A dead cell is still 10,000 times more complex and organized than anything man's managed to cobble together in a lab. And it isn't alive. But that's a hurdle they never talk about. If they could somehow, someday assemble a cell they still couldn't get it to live. Guess they're saving that problem until it comes up, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2007 6:13 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 2:31 AM CTD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 74 of 300 (422187)
09-16-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by bluegenes
09-11-2007 5:48 PM


bluegenes
quote:
Of course, if you decide that you're wrong, then you might come around to the more conventional view, shared by both evolutionists and creationists, that life on earth came into existence after the earth came into existence.
Life on earth came into existence before the earth. Hmm. That's odd. If it was before the earth it couldn't be on the earth. *Ptui!
I tried those words, but they just won't fit in my mouth. What can I say? I'd like to say "nice try", but it wasn't nice and it didn't have much effort or thought behind it.
I'll let you respond to the following two paragraphs, since they're directed against your own words.
quote:
What's your preferred theory of the non-natural origin of life on earth?
How many other natural things have proven to have non-natural origins in your opinion?
Would you care to list them?
Seems off-topic.
Pasteur's work in the 1800's wasn't quickly accepted, and apparently there are some who still can't handle the news. One does what one can to promote science and truth, but there are limits to what one can do.
Now bluegenes, if you can point out some flaw in Pasteur's methods or some factor he failed to take into account maybe you could make some headway. Simply stating your beliefs is nice, but it isn't very convincing or scientific. (Note that Pasteur was only one of several who investigated this field, and the others deserve their share of credit for some fine contributions to science.)
It's kind of a confusing thing to google. The law of biogenesis isn't the same thing as "Biogenetic Law" (as if anyone other than its author ever considered it a "law"!).
Page not found - EXPERIENCE
That might help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by bluegenes, posted 09-11-2007 5:48 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by bluegenes, posted 09-16-2007 6:21 PM CTD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 75 of 300 (422196)
09-16-2007 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by RAZD
09-11-2007 2:21 PM


My favorite watchword
RAZD
quote:
The rest of your post is mostly the argument from incredulity, which only betrays a general ignorance rather than any problems for reality and the rational study thereof.
I just love that phrase "argument from incredulity". What does it mean? Well, I've given it some thought, and what's the purpose of any argument? People don't argue from incredulity, but rather to incredulity. "Incredible" literally means something isn't believable, and the point of any argument is to demonstrate that the opposing view shouldn't be believed.
Judging by other threads, and other times I've seen the term used I'd have to take this as an indicator of success. If my argument has made anyone incredulous about the fairy tales in question, that's a good thing.
And I congratulate the others who've had the same compliment paid to them. I'm far from the first. When we argue, let us continue to argue to incredulity!
How exactly would an argument from incredulity go? "I don't believe it and neither should you." Not very convincing, and I don't recall seeing it used. That'd be a pretty arrogant version of the appeal to authority.
quote:
In fact the transmission of life from one generation to the next always involves the transmission of life, whether asexual division of living cells by duplication and division, or by sexual species through similar production of gametes that then combine in a zygote (which then proceeds to grow through cell division).
In no case is life created or developed in the process. In essence every single organism on Earth is the product of cell division from some original population of organisms.
This is what evolution teaches, albeit with some additional caveats:
That's what the science of biology teaches. That's what evolutionism has been forced to concede, and it's been an uphill battle. If you didn't know that you might want to study a little history & shut up about my ignorance. I do try to keep tabs on it. "A good man knows his limitations" - Clint Eastwood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2007 2:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2007 6:16 PM CTD has replied
 Message 87 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 2:43 AM CTD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 76 of 300 (422204)
09-16-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Percy
09-16-2007 9:32 AM


Percy
quote:
The point being made isn't that you're required to accept the scientific view. The point being made is that if you're going to argue against the scientific view, then be aware that science views the origin of the universe and the origin of life as distinct and unrelated events separated by a vast amount of time.
From the context I take it you have some definition of 'science' I would never use, and quite honestly I don't know that I can understand it.
As commonly used in the English language, 'science' says otherwise.
I once had a history teacher who was fond of saying "History is what historians say it is." Perhaps that's how you view science? I don't agree with this definition of history, nor would I accept it for science.
History is what happened. What actually did in fact occur. If a historian claims a thing happened, and it's discovered that it didn't, how can his claim be accepted as valid history? It can't. Same with science. If a scientist claims a thing is so, and it turns out it isn't... You do the math. I'd much rather know how things work than how some 'scientist' thinks they might work. There are just so many applications for genuine knowledge and so few applications for other kinds.
Okay, bad example. I know history has never been regarded highly among evolutionists. After all, it's the very thing you all're trying to replace, right?
But if proper definitions were in place, I'd say I'm arguing in favor of both the scientific view and the historic view. Both are valid means of obtaining knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Percy, posted 09-16-2007 9:32 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 09-16-2007 12:34 PM CTD has not replied
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CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 78 of 300 (422213)
09-16-2007 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Chiroptera
09-16-2007 10:06 AM


Chiroptera
quote:
Actually, this is untrue. Cosmologists could care less what biologists "need". In fact, you have brought up an important point. If scientists were motivated by a need to "prove" long ages and to "interpret" their data the way that they need to, then they would have stuck with the Steady State Theory. They would just have "interpreted" all the evidence in a way to maintain it. There was a resistance from some at first to the implications that the universe might only have a finite age -- Hoyle, for example, felt that this would end up implying the existence of a creator, and that's why he was pretty much against the Big Bang Theory. The fact that scientists switched from believing in an eternal universe to the Big Bang model pretty much shows that they do honestly look at the data and reach the conclusions that the data indicate.
Yep, old news. The Big Bang was not accepted until the community was convinced it was atheist-friendly. Did I forget to mention that? No!
But here's a good one. I said "The radiometric dates were all calibrated to match the 'fossil column' of their day."
Chiroptera
quote:
This, too, is not true. Radiometric dates are "calibrated" through experiments in physics laboratories, and physicists, like cosmologists, don't really care what geologists "need".
Notice I said "were" and C says "are". Oh that's so clever. Change the tense in order to make a (partially)true statement that appears to contradict another true statement. I'm just so impressed with your arguing skills!
I'm sorry you were unable to follow the rest of the story. I didn't go into details and specifics, but somehow I failed to make it as simple as I had intended. I always try to keep in mind that not everyone reads at the same level. I'll continue to try and write in an easy-to-understand way, but forgive me if I occasionally fail. Hopefully it wasn't too complex for everyone here.
I'll give it one more shot.
More time was always available for evolutionism until they ran up against radiometric dating and the Big Bang. These had been implemented in order to give evolutionism more credibility (and so others could get in on the bandwagon & get funding & stuff), but ironically got in the way when the next call came for more time.
Sorry for all the big words. Here's a link if you need help
credibility - Wiktionary
Now you might want to run along and find someone else to dispute with for a while. Someone who you can pull that trick upon, and they won't notice you changing 'were' to 'are'. Someone who'll get confused and think you're just too smart for them, okay?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Chiroptera, posted 09-16-2007 10:06 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by crashfrog, posted 09-16-2007 1:01 PM CTD has not replied
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CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 89 of 300 (422439)
09-17-2007 4:50 AM


I don't see much more that needs to be said regarding the original topic. Yes, one can divide science up into categories and groups. The divisions are arbitrarty and have been based on convenience rather than any guiding principle. The modern divisions are peculiar, and follow modern societies' trend toward overspecialization.
One is also free to disregard these artificial boundaries, and no harm is done. None of the scientists of previous ages cared much about them.
Thus if one chooses to do so, one may divide the subjects of pseudoscience as well. When it is convenient, why not talk of 'stellar evolution' as a separate topic from 'planetary evolution'? Fine and dandy. But it's a mistake to insist that others must consider these topics as having nothing in common when they clearly do have much in common.
It is a mistake to claim things must be considered independently when they are all part of the same chain, and rely one upon another.
But these are relatively trivial issues. The big error comes when one accepts speculation in place of hard science. It can get tricky. You can see dozens of equasions on a page - math is science, right? Wrong. Math deals with solving the equasions - not making them up. Without observations and evidence to back it up, math is just speculation written on paper.
Someone can present any hypothesis, and if it does not run contrary to any law of science it is scientifically valid. But an hypothesis without observation or experiment to back it up is still speculation. It should never be mistaken for firm knowledge, and anyone who portrays it as such is in error or deceptive.
Science used to have a strict hierarchy to keep tabs on the progress of ideas: hypothesis then theory then law. Used to take good evidence for an idea to advance from one stage to the next, and that's where the legitimate role of consensus among scientists came into play.
But those were the days of long ago. Before a man could just up and publish a 'biogenetic law' or a 'theory of relativity' or even a 'theory of evolution'. To be fair to Darwin, he wasn't trained as a scientist and there is a (slim) chance he wasn't aware of how deceptive the the title of his book actually was. The other two were fully aware. And the general public had no clue.
Just look at how the term 'theory' has devolved. It used to mean an idea that was not just possible, but one that had withstood testing and scrutiny. But today it is used to designate any fragment of speculation you could imagine.
I don't like it when words change meaning. If there's a need for a new word, one should be coined - not altered. And when a word is altered as a means of advancing an argument, well it's a sign of a weak argument.
One can observe this for oneself right here. Look at what some would pass of as 'science'. Or 'life'. Reading threads here, one will easily spot the term 'transitional form'. The term was used by Darwin to indicate a form of fossil which clearly showed itself to be intermediate between species. He had no examples. He felt that by predicting them it would strengthen his 'theory' if they should be found. This term has been altered over the years to mean 'the closest we can get', because no 'transitional form' has yet been discovered which meets the standard set by Darwin. There is nothing in all the countless fossils which he himself would call a 'transitional form'.
Redefining terms is not how language evolves. (Note that the new meaning of 'evolve' is now 'change', rather than in the past when it meant 'improve'. Would Darwin have watered down the term?) And for the record language does evolve. All concepts evolve.
When discussing any subject, if one allows another to freely redefine terms, any untrue statement can be transformed into a true statement. There's really no point in having any discussion at all. That's a big problem for evolutionism, and it's clearly evident in a large number of 'discussions'.
People on both sides will ask for definitions, but watch who tries to come up with honest definitions that keep in step with how the word in question has been used in the past; and watch who needs to invoke a new definition. The same team that needed a new definiton for 'theory' is still trying to redefine every other word in the language to support their 'theory'. And to question this is to question 'science'.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 09-17-2007 1:54 PM CTD has replied
 Message 97 by Modulous, posted 09-17-2007 2:26 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 98 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 7:42 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 118 by Nuggin, posted 09-18-2007 2:34 AM CTD has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 90 of 300 (422442)
09-17-2007 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by RAZD
09-16-2007 6:16 PM


Re: My favorite watchword - good: watch it again
RAZD
quote:
... and unfortunately for (1) you went off on a completely wrong tangent and (b) it has a specific meaning in logic: it means that your argument is only composed of your incredulity and has no substantiation in fact or logical structure.
Unfortunately, b follows a and 2 follows 1. I guess you need some rest, eh?
Now regarding the specific meaning of "argument from incredulity": were you misapplying the term, xor do you have a new alternative definition for us?
I always include reasons to justify incredulity. I haven't even looked back at my post because I don't need to verify this. Perhaps you'd care to take another look and maybe retract this.
I was aware of this logical fallacy intuitively long before I saw it defined. I am also aware of how the term is commonly used hereabouts. My previous post accurately describes the terms local meaning in practice. Just do a search if you doubt this. There are many examples.
I don't recall the term being applied correctly even once, if you want the truth. So previously I interpreted it in keeping with the local dialect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by RAZD, posted 09-16-2007 6:16 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 09-17-2007 10:58 AM CTD has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 91 of 300 (422444)
09-17-2007 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Dr Adequate
09-17-2007 2:52 AM


Oh goodness me!
That sure looks like a quotemining challenge.
Minutes to refute, weeks to be thorough. A tough choice. Glad I wasn't challenged - I'd probably have to toss a coin!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 2:52 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 7:54 PM CTD has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 99 of 300 (422581)
09-17-2007 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by RAZD
09-17-2007 10:58 AM


Huh?
RAZD
quote:
Having a reason is not the same as substantiation with evidence. You can have a reason to get up in the morning, but that doesn't make your argument any stronger.
Fine. I gave a good reason, and everyone knows it.
Now the only reason I could give that would qualify as an argument from incredulity (under the actual definition) is "I don't believe it so neither should you" or words to that effect. This clearly was not my reasoning, so although it may have been imperfect, it was not an argument from incredulity by any stretch of the imagination.
my pasted quote
quote:
I don't recall the term being applied correctly even once, if you want the truth.
RAZD
quote:
That wouldn't be your argument from incredulity again would it?
I think that would objectively be called an observation. I believe it's accurate, but even if it were utterly false it would still not qualify as an argument from incredulity.
You've already demonstrated that you're aware of the term's actual meaning, and yet you continue to misapply it. In the past you didn't behave this way, and I'm somewhat surprised. I don't know that I care to play any of your new games.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 09-17-2007 10:58 AM RAZD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 102 of 300 (422601)
09-17-2007 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Dr Adequate
09-17-2007 7:54 PM


Dr Adequate
quote:
What are you talking about?
'Quotemining' means running around searching for quotes, and then pasting them into one's post.
Like in that earlier post with Darwin, except it usually refers to a group. And like you'd expect, links are commonly provided.
In more direct and plain English, I believe it would be an extremely simple task to find examples where you have said exactly what HEWG said you said, and paste some examples and links here for everyone to see.
Better?
It is kind of a pain having to type all you own quote boxes. And it's really not worth the effort since nobody'd care anyhow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 7:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 8:39 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 09-17-2007 8:42 PM CTD has replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 105 of 300 (422630)
09-17-2007 9:15 PM


And...
And speaking of quotemining, the careful reader will notice that those who argue against me make several conflicting statements.
One says I made up the differences between hypothesis, theory, and fact. Another says I'm right on the mark, and scientists feel the same way about the issue. (For the record, I'm not old enough to have made up these differences.)
In fact, there are at least three issues that follow this pattern. One backs me up, and another says xxx about me for even thinking it.
Now I've been here before. It may look superficially like these people have some disagreements among themselves that could stand clarification. This is not the case. They agree about the most important issue, and that is to remain united in disagreeing with me.
I could paste where one says the exact opposite of another. And that person would deny saying it right on the same page it was said. It's happened before, and it's just a big waste of time.
It's another game I choose not to play. Read carefully, and you'll see how many of my points have been confirmed right here by dyed-in-the-wool evolutionists. One confirms this and disagrees with that. The other confirms that and disagrees with this. But in the end, they all agree that I must be wrong. They can't agree upon which issue I'm wrong about, and it doesn't matter a lick to them.
If getting the last word means "winning", then they're likely to win. I see a few things I may get around to, but I don't plan to spend much more time on this thread.
They actually did catch me in a mistake. The word 'theory' is not in the title of Darwin's book. I'm not as sharp as I once was, and I've never been perfect. Jeer while you can, evilooshunists. It may be a long time before I another mistake like that (I hope).
It detracts nothing from my point, since he did grossly misapply the term. It would detract from any egotistic argument from my own authority, when I demonstrated that I make mistakes. But I made no such argument.

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 09-17-2007 9:26 PM CTD has replied
 Message 109 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 10:01 PM CTD has not replied
 Message 114 by Percy, posted 09-17-2007 10:48 PM CTD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 107 of 300 (422639)
09-17-2007 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by RAZD
09-17-2007 8:42 PM


Don't s'pose I should wash my mouth out
RAZD
quote:
Quoting (we don't need a new word for it)
I absoultely agree.
Cursed internet slang's so contagious!
Thanks R.
I won't bother quibbling over definitions, since I intend not to use the term again. (We've had "quoting out of context" for quite some time as well, so it's not needed in any sense.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by RAZD, posted 09-17-2007 8:42 PM RAZD has not replied

CTD
Member (Idle past 5889 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 108 of 300 (422646)
09-17-2007 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by crashfrog
09-17-2007 9:26 PM


Re: And...
quote:
I think you've become confused. Nobody agreed with you that, historically, hypothesis became theory became law.
SO! Was it you? I haven't looked, but your denial sure came quick. I don't think you had time to carefully read through all those posts, now did you?
But I did ACCURATELY predict that whoever it was'd be plenty happy to change stories, now didn't I? And boy was it ever easy!
And you just missed out, 'cause if I'm not mistaken one of your earlier posts was the one I've been thinking about using as the basis for a funny post that we could all get a chuckle out of. But doing 180s and trying to pretend you're still on the same course is the kind of thing that disqualifies one.
I should start my own science: the study of deluded evolutionists. Think I could call it 'evolutionology'? Anyhow, it's an easy study. Anyone can learn it all in a matter of weeks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 09-17-2007 9:26 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-17-2007 10:12 PM CTD has not replied
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