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Author Topic:   Abiogenesis
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 247 of 305 (397111)
04-24-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Fosdick
04-24-2007 11:45 AM


Abiogenesis principally studies the origins of terrestrial life
Without knowing any abiogenic principles, how can separate the good questions from the bad?
The study of Abiogenesis doesn't limit itself to the terrestrial. However the subject of abiogenesis does have a bias towards explaining the origin of terrestrial life (whether that origin is extraterrestrial or not). There is no evidence that life that is here originated with some pre-Bang life. Maybe it did - but first we must explain its appearance on earth, how that came about...depending on the answer, depends on whether we continue exploring back to the depth of time and beyond.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 259 of 305 (397142)
04-24-2007 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by ringo
04-24-2007 2:31 PM


Re: And the principles are...?
Why? What specifically is lacking in the known principles of chemistry?
We don't know yet - that's why we research
Certainly there is nothing lacking in the fundamentals, but there are certainly principles out there waiting to be discovered. The principle of early cell formation for example.

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Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 260 of 305 (397145)
04-24-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Fosdick
04-24-2007 4:11 PM


Re: And the principles are...?
If Earth is so damn bio-friendly then why can't I go into the woods, turn over a rock, and see abiogenesis making fresh copies of new chemical thingies right before my eyes?
The earth is bio friendly, but it is not abiogenesis friendly right now. It is swarming with life, and any primitive life will be almost certainly less fit than the millions of highly evolved bacteria that will undoubtedly be all over the place in those woods. Organic matter is food for bacteria, and primitive life - even where it chemically possible to form in our current environment - has a massive biological barrier preventing its realization.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 280 of 305 (397341)
04-25-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Fosdick
04-24-2007 7:53 PM


Rock spore eat my proto-life!
Yes, I know. It's a version of "the dog ate my homework" excuse. Only in this case it's "life ate my evidence."
The dog ate my homework is an excuse, most usually a lie. Life didn't eat our evidence, since we do not think that there is any evidence for life to eat. Prebiotic chemicals don't have the opportunity to chemically self organize and develop hereditary traits - since those chemicals will be being used for other things by existing and prevalent life.
Then, by your reasoning, abiogensis could never happen because life would simply eat itself to death. (After bug A eats bug B it starves to death, and the whole process has to start over.)
Abiogenesis would be very unlikely to occur on present day earth because present day life basically prohibits it. However, in early biotic times, life would not eat itself. Certainly Life A will eat Life B, but life B would reproduce and the offspring will eat more Life As. There would be a Darwinian struggle, you might say.

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 Message 287 by Fosdick, posted 04-25-2007 8:10 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 281 of 305 (397342)
04-25-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
04-24-2007 5:32 PM


cell formation
That's a bit further down the road than abiogenesis, isn't it?
It probably depends on your preferred model. In the Lipid World model, they talk about cell membrane like formations developing. Some models are more 'naked' than this.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 293 of 305 (397528)
04-26-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Fosdick
04-25-2007 8:10 PM


Re: Rock spore eat my proto-life!
Well, if those prebiotic chemicals didn't do the biological trick, then what did?
I didn't say prebiotic chemicals didn't do the biological trick. I said prebiotic chemicals can't do the biological trick in the present due to the existing biota.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 295 of 305 (397534)
04-26-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by AZPaul3
04-25-2007 4:41 PM


Re: It's Alive! It's Alive! Or is it?
It is a bacterial smorgasbord to be sure. But, with all this biochemical stuff already half-formed and ready to go the probability of a replicator event is much greater now than on a pristine abiotic Earth. But, once spawned, having such a thing survive, progress and evolve in today’s world is dubious.
I disagree. A pristine abiotic world have a lot more time to develop life. The organic matter in that pond is decaying (ie being eaten by the smorgasbord) comparably quickly. Abiotic earth had organic chemicals, but without the bacterial decay to worry about and with a whole lot of time and space. The pond has little of either.

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