How do you decide what is True in the Bible?

I think the problem for many Christians who come here is as follows:

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Zragger was the mighty plusrazor master of the shattered oyxy box. Before he existed, he was able to perform mighty crackletoes of zograds. But low he had an nemisis - the unholy slapperbotrum. And a day came when they fought with jellyguns.

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Now it seems like I'm taking the piss and suggesting that Christianity is nonsense, I'm not. But to a disbeliever, the claims of Christianity can sound like that. May disbelievers don't wish to offend but many Christians find it difficult to understand why people don't "get it". It’s very difficult for people who put great store in something to understand that to many people it is of no significant at all.This tends to led to two types of problems here:

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1) The special pleading:

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it says such and such in the bible therefore it must true.

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God could have just released all of the heat into space with a wave of his hand.

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Now this is fine in the faith forums but may posters run into trouble because they try to use this line of reasoning in the science forums. Christians who come here have to accept that in the SCIENCE forums the bible is given little to no credence, it is just a book. Others, will for a while, try and practice Pseudoscience, they will offer explanations but when cornered will resort to goddunit or well you don’t know the answer either so it must be true!!

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This causes friction and problems.

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2) testimonial:

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But it was very dangerous to be a christian in those times

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Won Ryatt was a great man and I knew him. I just know he was telling the truth when he says he found the Ark

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This is the second big problem I see here on a regular basic. The Christian religion is one that is built on testimonial, again something that most people in the science forums will not accept. This lends to all sorts of problems because many Christians then try to argue the scientist NOT the science — But he was an honest man, it must be true or more commonly He’s covering up the evidence because he’s an atheist. This cuts no ice at all in the science forums.

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This causes friction and problems.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 26-Jul-2005 08:57 AMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 26-Jul-2005 09:00 AM

Yes, well, the warning sign that ought to be up front should try to get those problems across, preferably with many links to relevant debates that illustrate them. But EJ was simply offended at the outrageous blasphemy he encountered, and I can't blame him. That too should be in the warning message. If we're going to hang around here we have to expect it and figure out other ways of dealing with it than our natural anger at the offense to God.

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I find it heartening to be able to read posts in which I find so much with which I agree. I am afraid I may have gotten started on the wrong foot in here as I seem to have made some quick enemies. Perhaps enemies is not the correct term to use but it is very late and my mind is not so willing to search for the correct one.

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Just so you know, EJ, Faith made herself quite the target when she began to post here because she had the unfortunate tendency to commit intense, vitriolic personal attacks upon her fellow posters combined with another tendency to make factual claims that she then refused to back up with evidence.We did consider her quite a gifted and bright writer, however, so tolerated her egregious forum guideline violations much more than would normally be accepted in the hopes that she would mend her ways and become a better EvC citizen.I see no evidence that you have developed any "enemies" yet, and if you follow the forum guidelines there should be no problems I can forsee.Oh, and welcome to the forum!AdminSchraf

I've been thinking about this - what we really need is a pop-up or a standard page for the first time you go into the science or faith forums.Problem is - who reads such things?

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But EJ was simply offended at the outrageous blasphemy he encountered, and I can't blame him. That too should be in the warning message.

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Why should we cater to the delicate sensibilities of any particular religious sub-group?Nobody is forcing anyone to stay here, read anything, or post anything.If you are terribly offended, then don't participate.

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If we're going to hang around here we have to expect it and figure out other ways of dealing with it than our natural anger at the offense to God.

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That's right; "If we're going to hang around here..."It's your choice to be here or not.But anyway, do you really think that an all powerful, all knowing God can possibly be offended at what is said on an internet discussion board?Is god so petty and human-like that he needs his followers to stick up for him?On the other hand, I have certainly come to expect lots of unprovoked personal attacks, insults, and offense from individual Christians who have visited this board over the years.

Yes, that's a good idea. Something at the head of each major forum group that catches attention, but it should be easily bypassed by those who are familiar with the place too or it would just be an annoyance, and I don't know how that could be set up. I'm sure that newcomers WILL read anything that is in their face and appears to help them get around the place, unless it's five pages of dense print or otherwise too demanding. But I think you're right, that's where the specific problems that people encounter in those sections should be spelled out. I think links to relevant posts or threads would help. It would cut down on the print factor up front and give people options as well as familiarizing them with the place.What greets the visitor who enters the site by the official front door is a pretty inscrutable page that's obviously become obsolete. A friendly short note of orientation there could help too. Whatever it is, it should stand out and it shouldn't be lengthy although it could have many links a person can follow through on.Otherwise what happens is that people muddle around until they discover that the "all topics" page seems to be the best place to hang out, but there's nothing there to orient them except the row of buttons across the top that many people don't check out right away I'm sure, so there's really nothing to guide them at all except this vague recommendation to "become familiar" with this big place -- and they don't encounter that until they've already posted a PNT or just posted illegally in some forum without a PNT. I'm sure there are cautious people who spend a lot of time reading before they enter, but that's not everybody.

Is posting an orientation message too much catering in your opinion? OK Thanks for the information. I'm sure it never would have occurred to me. It's a matter of respect and deference to greatness. Earthly monarchs expect to be treated with respect, how much more God Himself? I wonder how well you'd do in the presence of Queen Elizabeth? How long would you be permitted to hang out in her presence if you behaved rudely and said offensive things about her? As a matter of fact, we expect more politeness toward ordinary folk like ourselves than you seem to think God should require of us. That's too bad if truly so, but on the other hand you can be extremely provocative.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-26-2005 10:34 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 07-26-2005 10:35 AM

How can a non-believer, specifically a non-christian, blaspheme?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Earthly monarchs expect to be treated with respect, how much more God Himself?

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How many earthly monarchs actually deserve respect? Same with God. If God were to exist and were to behave in a manner deserving of respect, then I'm sure I could manage it.

MmHm. Well, I suspect you wouldn't last long in the court of an evil monarch either if you didn't observe the protocols. I mean, deserving it is not the point.It's very interesting, I think, that we are told in the New Testament that the greatest angels treat Satan with respect, never upbraiding him but referring him to God for judgment, and that is how we are also to treat even him, not because he's good and deserving, of course, since he is the opposite, but because he has authority and power. How much more we should respect God who is good. Now this may only prompt you to say something even more disrespectful than suggesting that God doesn't deserve respect, but I recommend against it.Also, throughout the Bible, both old and new testaments, God's people are pictured showing great respect to even tyrannical monarchs, such as Nebuchadnezzar. Paul, when he goes to the authorities, treats them with apparently sincere deference.Something Americans in particular may need to learn possibly, as Americans seem to have this aggressive barbarian idea of democratic equality that brings out bratty behavior, but some of the Brits here show that we aren't alone.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-26-2005 11:03 AM

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since he is the opposite, but because he has authority and power

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what a dreadful idea - People with authority and power are those we show the least respect to unless there is some relationship with experience and graft.I'd show respect to the Captain of a warship, I'd show respect to my Doctor but there is no way on earth I'd drop to one knee for Lord Snotty or Brenda. they can get stuffed!

I suppose you mean something like: how can they blaspheme someone they don't believe in, sort of like, if they don't believe in Him He simply doesn't exist?But I thought you believed in Him. If He exists, then everyone was made by Him and everyone owes Him worship. Or follow through on my previous note to Chiroptera -- He is the King of the universe and all owe Him deference. Nobody is outside His property. All belong to Him. Blaspheme Him at your own risk.

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Well, I suspect you wouldn't last long in the court of an evil monarch either if you didn't observe the protocols.

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Probably not, but then observing proper etiquette is not necessarily the same as having respect. Anyone can demand a show of respect and anyone can get it if they are indeed powerful enough. But that isn't the same as sincerely having respect for someone. And if I understand evangelical Christianity correctly, merely observing the proper rituals is not enough -- hell, merely believing that God exists is not enough -- one must be sincere in one's acceptance and trust in God. But someone cannot simply command another person to love and respect her -- one's beliefs and emotions are not completely under one's control (even if one's outward behavior is).

Outward politeness goes a long way. Scripture certainly isn't requiring more than that to Satan. Yes, God is to be loved with all the heart, it's not just an outward thing. He provides the power to love Him though, when someone really wants to know Him.

I do. I agree that He is Creation, but not the second part. I don't believe all owe Him deference or that He would even care. GOD is not some Bling-Bling Pimp Daddy that will get bent out of shape when some human disrespects Him. I disagree greatly with the concept of things as property.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion