How do you decide what is True in the Bible?

If you say so. But, to tell the truth, the only style of evangelical Christianity that makes any sense to me is the Calvinist doctrine of predestination.

Interesting. Most people hate that idea, even many Christians. But Calvinism doesn't expect people not to have to make an effort. Being interested and making the effort is part of what is predestined. But if you're not you're not.

Ditto!Peace Always!

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

Belief is not a prerequisite to blasphemy.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

One of the problems I encounter all too often is someone who claims belief in and/or a knowledge of God but appears to be ignorant of what should be common knowledge to any believer. Far too often I see people attempt to place God in what I like to call "their little box of understanding" so that they can feel more comfortable with their belief, regardless of the fact, or perhaps because of the fact that a simple study of the scriptures would shatter their little box.Some people say they can see but their problem is not in the seeing. Their problem is in the perceiving and accepting of things as they are stated. Oft times, when their flawed sense of reason is corrected using the scriptures, they resort to what I feel are pretty lame excuses such as, "Well, I don't believe that." or "That's your understanding, not mine and who's to say you're right and I'm wrong."Believers are not given the luxury of picking and choosing what part of Gods' Word they will abide by and what part they will reject. Believers either believe Gods' Word or they call God a liar. There is no middle ground for believers, which may explain why some people abandon the faith they once had in God. They simply are not comfortable with the idea of God being righteous always, especially when their idea of common sense and logic, (which IMO is flawed due to the fall of man), is challenged.This message has been edited by EltonianJames, 07-26-2005 12:56 PM

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

I would qualify this to mean "the offense to an individuals beliefs about God". I think much in the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon would be offensive to God if I beleived God took offense in the human sense of things. Religions are social power institutions and the offense is to the social authorities and those who support them. The universe works just fine irrespective of our opinions of it.I note that fundamentalist Christians don't seem to object to offending the beliefs of Muslims, Buddhists, or Hindus for example. The Buddhists don't believe in God, but the Muslims and Hindus do. If you claim the monopoly to speak for God then it's you who are offended if someone disagrees with you. That makes sense but it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone unless they have lived in extreme social isolation but if that is the case how did they suddenly come upon this web site?lfen

I believe Christians are offended for God, not our beliefs, but God.

The biggest problem with the modern version of Calvinism is that it must abandon the scriptural concept of free will. All too often they confuse the idea of predestination with the unmistakable constant foreknowledge of God.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

Nonetheless, the traditional doctrine that God will allow people to be horribly tormented for all eternity, and yet it is only by loving, trusting, and respecting such a God that one can avoid such torment contradicts any idea of God being fair or just.Predestination at least allows one to claim that this is all part of God's goodness, and it doesn't matter whether one initially can accept that goodness -- if God has chosen you, then you will accept it.

But as you state "I believe Christians ... " that is a belief!lfen

Much to the dismay of some of my colleagues, I don't ascribe to the belief in unending torment. Eternal punishment yes, unending torment no. Often, the word translated as "eternal" carries the meaning of a period of time, determined or undertermined. I firmly believe that God will, at some point, completely and utterly destroy the wicked. Using the above verse in Jude as an example, one would have to argue that the eternalfire spoken of here must still be burning in order to claim this word always means without end, never ceasing, everlasting, and eternal. It is the judgement that is eternal, not the fire. Sodom and Gomorrha are, to this day, condemned and destroyed. Often times the words Eternal and Everlasting are used interchangeably but the reader must be willing to research original words, terms, and phrases in order to get a more qualified understanding of scripture. I would accept this viewpoint as a viable line of reasoning.

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"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed." Albert Einstein

You don't speak for all believers.Belief in God is a spectrum, not a monolith. There most certainly is a "middle ground".It's all middle ground.This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-07-26 01:56 PM

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

If there is no "middle ground" there is no grace and no redemption either.On edit: It was the Pharisees who said "there is no middle ground" in the time of Jesus.This message has been edited by deerbreh, 07-26-2005 06:09 PM

That's just it. I, and many others, don't believe the Bible to be the direct Word of God. I'm not calling God a liar, I'm saying that the Bible is just a book that talks about God using allegories and symbols. I also think some of the actios atributed to God or at least justified as "God's Will" were nothing of the sort.I think biblical literalism can make God seem dishonest, however.Scientists use the light from distant supernovas to date the age of the universe. The come at a number in the billions at least. Creationsits often explain this away by saying "God creatd that light already enroute to Earth so that it would seem to be that old, but it's not becuase the Bible says so." I find the idea of making the universe appear older just to confuse us to be dishonest. It would mean God purposefully made the evidence to mislead us. I don;t think He would lie like that.

I'm glad that you don't believe in everlasting Hell.But a God that destroys nonbelievers for something so simple as not believing does not strike me as a just God. Neither do I find the ideals of the Rapture, where the faithful are brought to Heaven while the rest of the world suffers to be the actions of a just God.I think that, if they existed, Sodom and Gamorrah, were destroyed by a natural disaster, not the Punishment of God. I think that, just as some people credit Gods Wrath for the destruction of 9/11 due to homosexuality and other "sins" of the modern world, the author saw behavior he considered immoral in those cities, and when they were destroyed credited God's Wrath with the slaughter.