Anything Divine in the Bible?

Coragyps, If the moderators would permit I'd like to examine your challenge here.Could you demonstrate to me a concrete example of how the teachings of Jesus run diametrically opposed to the commands of God in Deutoronomy and Joshua ?Give me your strongest example/s first, not your weaker ones as if to save your strongest for latter.Remember, the issue is - Are Jesus's teachings Diametrically Opposed to what God commands in Deutoronomy and Joshua?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I dare not offer a flippant answer to a tough question like this.However, Israel was oppressed for about 400 years in Egypt before God led them out in a glorious deliverance. In doing so he crushed Egypt to the point that they were [too] humiliated to record it in their history for future generations to know.During those four centries many Jews died in slavery. God did act eventually in His time. That is my main point. The Exodus was the divine answer.I believe that the reemergence of Israel as a nation was a divine reaction to the Holocost. The HOlocost certainly provided a desperate incentive for the Jews and much of the world to be opened to the reformation of thier nation. If your concept is that the existence of God should mean that no one ever suffers, then that would make God only the God of comfortable situations.If you read the Psalms you'll see that God was not only God to people in rosy comfortable situations. He was also their God in very tough and problematic circumstances too.The Pharisees taunted Jesus the Son of God on the cross. Why would not His Father come and rescue Him is He was Son of God. "Come down from the cross. And then we will believe."I would not be fooled by the expectation that if God is then there should be no one who is in a difficult situation in need of victory over suffering and even death.History may be headed in that direction in eternity. But for now, God is not only the God of people in comfortable circumstances. He is also the God of people in terribly difficult circumstances. While we are at it may we ask this too? Where was God when YOU were committing your sins against people ? Why did God not immediately slay you for your sins against people you have wronged?How did a big sinner like you get away with so much? Where was God?Do you think the fact that you can point out the crimes of others makes you somehow more righteous than they ?Hint. No one is getting away with anything. The last judgment will be the last judgment.I note your moral outrage. But this does not mean that God is not real or available. And you might turn the question towards yourself. Your sins, were not immediatly judged when you were enjoying them either. This does not mean that there will not be a day of reckoning for what you did.So you too, like Pol Pot, need to repent to be saved from God's righteous final judgment. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.Do you think because you didn't do exactly what Pol Pot did you will escape the judgement of God ? Did you ask "Where was God when I was taking advantage of someone for my own selfish ends?"Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Quote me where I said they did ? I don't know. But tension between Arab and Jew goes back to Genesis times.My point was that God was behind the scenes just has he was in the book of Esther when bod things happened to the Jews were turned by God to further His program with them. And His program with them involves His intention to reach and bless the Gentiles through them.So your point of "the absent God" does nor persuade me.
I was not inviting you to a full scale political debate on the region. I am more interested in Bible Study - what does it really mean?I do not think an absent apathetic God is witnessed by the things you mentioned. My reasons for the most part are because of biblical testimony. I did refer to the reamergence of modern day Israel which has many political problems.Generally I was pointing out the sovereignty of God over history. I think He knows what He is doing. Maybe you should take your discussion to the political forum if EvC has one. I don't think God did nothing. I think God did not act as you expected Him to act.If you read the Bible you may have noticed some instances when He went so far to defend Israel that it altered the behavior of nature itself.I believe the rocks raining down on the Canaanites demonstrates this. I believe the torrential flood at a crucial battle in the book of Judges demonstrates this. And the most famous case of the sun and moon remaining in their places until the defeat of the enemies of Isreal.Did you ask what kind of God would do these things?These instances proved that the God of Israel would altar the common behavior of the universe itself to care for His divine purpose with Israel. However, He may not ALWAYS act in that way.Did you ask what kind of God would part the Red Sea to deliver the Hebrews from the oppressive Egyptian Empire?These demonstrations however, do not mean that God would ALWAYS act in that manner. It is about trust in Him. Many Christians were also not spared. But the saying went about - The blood of the witnesses was the seed of the saints"Their terrible persecutions spread the Christian faith. Sometimes the executioners became disciples of Christ themselves when they witnessed how the Christians died strong in their belief.We cannot put God in a box and expect that He will always act the same way in every situation. And I am more impressed with the testimony of people like Corrie Ten Boom who was in a concentration camp with Jews. Or of Watchman Nee who was locked up in a Communist prison for 20 years.The enduranance and indistructible nature of their trust in God, in spirte of it all, impresses me more than your moral outrage. God still is. Since you brought it up - on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most righteous, where would you place yourself and where would you place Jesus Christ ?On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most just, where would you place yourself and where would you place the God of the Bible?And if you rank yourself higher, how come you have not had such an impact on human history as the God of the Bible?When are you going to come out of the closet and give a book that rivals the Bible if God has a thing or two to learn at your feet about ethics ? Where is the referee or the higher standard of morality by which you plan to judge God ? Are you the source of a higher standard of morality than God ?Should we be able to broadcast your whole life in every action on this computer screen, would we see a glorious person who is qualified to rebuke God and correct Jesus Christ?As a child my father did things I did not understand then. My mother gave me an enema. I hated it. Latter I matured and learned that this was her care for me.I allow room for the fact that in my immaturity pershaps some actions I read about of God are incorrectly understood by me. I don't expect a book from God to have only things in it that I would agree with. My personal life testifies to me that in some areas probably I am sinful and misunderstanding of a higher level of righteousness.Maybe you think a book from God would only have things which you agreed with from beginning to end. But does your life suggest that you would understand some higher morality than you have lived ?Maybe we should ask some of the people who really know you well. The best place to see where history is going is the 21rst and 22nd chapter of the book of Revelation. You never read about the climax of human history under God's full salvation ?No death, no tears, no desease, a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells. And the rebels and unbelievers in the lake of fire.In the mean time my God says that He desires that none would perish but all would come to repentence. IF there is no God then where do you get your standard of morality by which you are outraged?IF there is no Ultimate Governor then your atheism or agnosticism offers a weak basis for moral outrage.This reminds me of the child who want to slap his dad on the face. But he can't reach his face without sitting on his lap.So you borrow ultimate morality in order to condemn God. If there is no God then there is really no solid bases for you to be upset by any behavior. We will all melt peacefully into dust. There will be no reckoning to any Final Judge. So where do you get your moral outrage ?What difference does it make if there is no God ? Nope. It is just that physical death is not the end of it all.Have you heard of the resurrection ?Have you heard of "All things work together for good to those who love God and, to those who are called according to His purpose."?The story of the Bible from Genesis through Revelatiuon is the story of God overcoming obstacles against His eternal purpose of all kinds. The Bible didn't end with the murder of Abel by Cain. Nor did it end with any other of the evil things which we might expect to thwart the divine plan.Are you outraged at the crucifixion of the most innocent Man, Jesus. Did you ring your hands and ask where was God when this Righteous Man was being nailed to a cross? The disciples of Jesus did.Then they became witnesses of His glorious resurrection. We believe in the God of resurrection. I know that you are a fallen human being. Maybe not as bad as myself but bad nonetheless.You're a sinner - a self righteous one perhaps, but a typical garden variety sinner just the same.Is there no one you have come accross in your life time who would not smile standing beside your death bed ? Think about it. I bet there is. I know because "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."Jesus Christ was not only sinless, He was gloriously sinless. Are you glorious? Have you like Jesus led a life which was glorious ? I doubt it just a little bit.But thank God Jesus loves sinners like me and, yes, like you too. You didn't read the Bible well. God is PERFECT in righteousness and in holiness. Perfection is perfect.God will not hold you up in comparison to Hitler. He will hold you up in comparison to PERFECT - that is Jesus Christ.Let me put it to you this way. You need redemption through the death and resurrection of Jesus.If you have to answer to this perfect God for one sin, you'll never make it.Imagine a room full of broken bowls. Some are broken in 100 pieces, some in 50, some in 30 pieces, some in 10 pieces, some in only 2 or 3 pieces.Those who are broken in two pieces may say "At least I am not that broken. THis one over here is really more broken. He's into 30 pieces. I am only broken into two pieces."The point is that they are ALL broken.The point is that to the perfect God we are ALL sinners. We are all in need of redemption and salvation and transformation.You may say that you are better off than some other guy who is really bad. YOu still are broken and are a sinner.I have to take that hike now. See you latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Coragyps, Jesus refered to Deuteronomy 6:5 about God commanding such love. And you think that what happened to Achan diametrically opposes this teaching of Jesus, which He quoted from the Law in the Torah.The implication is that Achan was not loved because he was executed for breaking a commandment of God.However, Joshua's command to execute Achan was not a matter of his personal feeling towards Achan. It was a matter that God judged Achan because his hyprocrisy nearly sabatoged the entire nation. Achan's selfish act in going against God's command to devote everything in Jericho to destruction:"But as for you, keep yourselves from what has been devoted to [destruction], lest you devote [yourselves to destruction] by taking what has been devoted and you make the camp of Israel of something devoted [to destruction] and bring trouble to it." (Joshua 6:18)Firstly, I object to your implication that love makes it impossible for God to carry out justice. The lesson at Jericho was that none of the Israelites was totally independent. Thier standing before God effected the whole nation as a unit. The secret sin of Achan could be cause for thirty-six of his fellow Hebrews to be killed and thousands to flee for thier lives. This happened in a battle against Ai (Joshua 7:1-9)"So about three thousand men from the people went up there, but they fled before the men of Ai. And the men of Ai struck some of them, about thirty-six men; and they pursued them ... And the heart of the people melted and became like water... And Joshua resnt his cloths and fell to the ground upon his face before the Ark of Jehovah until the evening, he and the elders of ISrael; and they put dust on thier heads." (Jos. 7:4-6)The cause of these deaths, this defeat, the loss of nerve to the nation was the selfish sin of Achan.You imply that because God exposed the hidden sin, the cause of national defeat, and the punishment of Achan, that this was against love. In other words there can be no justice where there is love.Please notice that Joshua's tone to Achan was not loveless. But it did turn him to consider the glory of God:"And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give glory to Jehovah the God of Israel, and make confession to Him. And tell me what you have done; do not hide anything from me." (Jos. 7:19)There is no personal hatred in this. He calls Achan, the man who has just caused the death of thirty six men, his son.I do not say that the stoning of Achan and family was not harsh. It was terribly harsh. But I consider some points:1.) This was not the only time that the selfish disobedience of one of God's people brought about weakness in spiritual warfare to the larger congregation. Of course it was not. But this was one instance when God used the incendent to make an example to teach further generations.God did not always act this way or we would have seen similar actions in practically every war battle Israel fought.2.) The family being stoned along with Achan is harsh. I admit that. But this probably did not effect their eternal destiny. I suspect that Achan and his family will be seen in the eternal New Jerusalem. At least I would like to think so.3.) Followers of God need to be educated that thier whole household is effected by their actions and behavior. Innocent members of your household may suffer because you as the head of the home are in rebellion against God.Achan's hidden sin caused thirty six men to be killed. What about the sorrow of the families of those soldiers? And there is no joy in Joshua's obligation to execute Achan."And Joshua said, Why have you troubled us? Jehovah will trouble you this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire when they had stoned them with stones. Then they erected over hin a great heap of stones, which is there to this day ... and Jehovah turned from the fierceness of His anger. Therefore the name of tht place is called the Valley of Achor to this day." (7:25,26)God still hates sin. God has made loving provision for the redemption of the sinner He loves.God made an example and a instructive memorial of that incident. By far God did not repeat exactly that action for each and every other time unfaithfulness of one Hebrew was the cause of national weakness and defeat.4.) It is inadaquate to teach that God's love ties His hands so that He cannot execute justice. What is needed instead is to see how God's love and God's righteous judgment work together.And that we see on the crosss of Christ. We all, as guilty as Achan, can accept that the Son of God received the divine justice in our place. He died for our sins. This was both God's love at work and God's righteousness at work. Justice was imputed on our behalf through Christ's death on His cross.So both the great love of God and the righteous justice of God coordinated together.Now would you say that the secular judge who has to sentence me to prison for the injury and mugging of another citizen betrays that he has no love for me? Does love mean that I can do anything I want with no fear of consequences?So I see no teaching of Jesus, diametrically opposite, to the incident in Joshua chapter 7.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Bertot's words are generous towards me. And I appreciate the encouragement.Now I would like to hear Corygyp's response and another example.
But Rrhain objects: The account is purposely harsh. But were they not warned? Did they not see how God fought for their nation ? The history of the miracles, the deliverance, the sustaining in the wilderness, the manna from heaven, the water in a barren place, the provision and guidance for 40 years ... do you think all of that was worth ignoring for a Babylonian garment and a wedge of gold?This is what I believe about God's rignteousness:He is "a God of truth and without iniquity; just and right is He" (Deut. 32:4)In the smiting and captivity of Israel God was just - Howbeit You are just in all that is brought upon us; for You have done right, but we have done wickedly." (Neh. 9:33; Isaiah 45:21; Zeph 3:5"The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works." Psalm 145:17Abraham pressed God repeatedly to insure himself that God would be just in His sparing any worthy people in the city of Sodom."Will not the Judge of the whole earth do justly?" (Gen 18:25). I agree with Abraham. I do not put my trust in any higher referee or court which will teach God, instruct God, or discipline God for error. I don't think Brian can do this job or knows of anyone or anything which can.In the New Testament Jesus prayed " O RIGHTEOUS Father, the world has not known You." (John 17:25)Jesus' credentials are above question to me. And Jesus says His Father is the Righteous Father.God says that righteousness is the foundation of His throne. I take that to mean that if God were to be unrighteous His basis to be the Ruler and Governor of the universe would be damaged. Righteousness is the foundation of the throne of His authority.Even in His final pouring out of His wrath in the great tribulation to come, the voices say "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty; JUST and TRUE are Your waus You king of nations" (Rev. 15:3).Robert Govette writes: Having said all of this, having established God's hatred for unrighteousness and sin we have this good news indeed:"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)The audience is Christians. The audience is men and women, boys and girls who have believed in Jesus the Lord and Savior. He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS tp forgive our sins. IF we trust in Christ God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive our sins for the sake of Christ's finished work on Calvary.This passage does not say that God is faithful and merciful to forgive. It says that it is the RIGHTEOUS thing for Him to do. So do you see how God's righteousness also works in our favor as sinners?If we believe in Christ God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We can be bold and say "Father God, because of Jesus death for me, you HAVE to forgive me. Whether you like me or you don't like me. You are legally bound by your own righteous nature, for cleanse me for all my unrigheousness. Righteousness is the very foundation of Your throne God. And because of Jesus the Son of God and His sacrifice on the cross, You must do the RIGHTEOUS thing and forgive me for His sake."Please consider how this righteousness of God, in Christ, works wonders in our behalf. He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins who have believed in the death and resurrection of His Son for our salvation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hold on for a minute. Did Jefferson write something into the US Constitution about the Creator endowing us with something?We hold certain truths to be self evident, Jefferson wrote. Did he mention the Creator or not?Does Jefferson appeal than to a Creator God to give legitimacy to these self evident truths ?Yes, I know Jefferson was a Diest (spelling?). That could mean that he accepted some of the Bible and dismissed other parts.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No but yes seems to be your answer below. A Divine Creator PERIOD. That's all I need to know. That is a God. I am not arguing that. I am simply pointing out that Jefferson supplies legitimacy to his concept of human govenrment by refering to an ultimate Governor - a Creator. That is a God. Sorry.He was not an atheist or an agnostic proposing human government in a vacuum with all disregard to any ultimate Governor.The poster implied that owe God nothing for the existence of Human GOvernement. Thomas Jeffeson would not agree with him.Whether Jefferson believed in Allah, Vishnu, Yahweh, the Christian God, or a Deist God makes no difference. It is a an ultimate Governor a creating final authority as the basis of the legitimacy of human government in this case. Well, you apparently didn't read about the 50th year of Jubilee ordained in the Old Testament. Every 50 years, depts were forgiven, slaves were released, property was returned.Regular cicles of release from captivity ordained by this God of Israel for the priests to carry out in the Old Testament. Why did he have a Bible then? Why did he have something called "Jefferson's Bible"?I have heard that it contained parts of the Bible to which he was receptive and excluded other things.I am not interested in proving Jeffeson was a Baptist. I am only refering to his appeal to a Creator to bulster his concept of a good governement with people with rights endowed upon them from a higher, indeed the highest authority. Point out to me another book which starts out taking as few words to describe to us ALL of these things:1.) The origin of matter, space, time and the universe.2.) The origin of animals.3.) The origin of man.4.) The origin of the institution of marriage.5.) The origin of man's problems with God.6.) The purpose for man's creation.7.) The first murder.8.) The origin of musicians.9.) The origin of agriculture.10.) The origin or industry.11.) The early spread of humans over the face of the earth.12.) The first family.13.) The origin of human government.14.) The origin of death.15.) The first human city.What other book uses as many initial words to cover this many vital topics as Genesis chapters 1 through let us say 11 or so ?Remember, I want a book which covers ALL of these topics in as few words. I do not mean one or two of these topics. I do not mean all of them scattered in many different writings.The inclusion of so many foundamentally important issues to human life in the first several thousand words of Genesis is ONE of the things which persuades me that it is a Divine Book. [qs]Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Here's what Jefferson wrote: When Jefferson wrote these words:"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."Do you think this "God" refered to is the same as the Creator in the Declaration of Independence ?I didn't ask you if you think he means Christianity's God. I know he had critical things to say about Christianity. So did A.W. Tozer, G.H. Pember, and other Christian teachers and scholars.I ask you if you think that this God (with an altar) and the Creator of his statement in the Declaration are the same entity?Seems that Jefferson is refering to some grand Moral Law. Then I would ask who is the law giver for this transcendent moral law. Who is the Legislator?Was Thomas Jefferson "Anti God"?http://www.geocities.com/graymada/CB/findingGod.html

Which nation beside Israel under the Levitical Priesthood has such a custom ?I didn't offer it as proof of divinity but of evidence. And I offered it in response to your quote of Jefferson to the effect that where there are priests there will be no freedom.You can dull its uniqueness by listing the other nations which have such a practice. I see a record of him encouraging someone to study the Bible. Could you show me a quote of him encouraging someone to study the Koran ?You refered to me as a "zealot". But I do so admire an easy going tolerant person who has a "live and let live attitude". I think it is good to let people simply choose their own way and not impose your "good news" on them.Very tolerant of you. Then again I guess it could also be that you just don't have anything worth telling anyone.

Oooo - potty mouth !A foul mouth really strengthens your point greatly. How forceful.I know some elementary school boy's restrooms where you could scribble your arguments on walls of the toilet stales.You could get some discussion going. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You are saying that he did not capitalize god ?Okay. Tell me when I am supposed to be crushed with dissappointment.http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/022/0400/0440.jpg Great answer. But not to the question I asked.I asked did you think the "god" was the same as the "Creator" ? Too bad. His loss. Objection, assuming facts not evidence.Thanks for at least stirring some interest in Jefferson's spiritual ideas, whose writings I'll have to look into more.Fortuntely, the Gospel and the Bible are not in need of Thomas Jefferson or the Declaration of Independence or even the existence of the United States of America to verify their divine nature to me.He needed them.I stand with my point that Jefferson appealed to a divine Creator (a god / God ) to bulster his concept of a just human government, Deist or religious critic notwithstanding.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

On Thomas Jefferson again Great thinker no doubt.Then again maybe those concepts interfered with his desire to jump into bed with his African slave woman with a good conscience.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Can you supply us with an unambiguous statement of Thomas Jefferson that he was a Deist? Where did he state clearly that he was a Deist?According to John Orr's book English Deism the beginning of Deism was sparked by the book of Herbert of Cherbury (1583 - 1648). He is called "The Father of English Deism".The book was written in 1624 and called D Veritate (On Truth) and signaled the beginning of Deism in England.Hebert set forth five prinicples of religion which he believed were common to all people: I read that latter Deists expanded this list while some omitted V, about rewards and punishments in an afterlife.This "Father of English Deism" wrote: If Jefferson was a Deist I wonder how he could believe in truths of "divine nature" without a divine "Supreme God" as their source - a Divine Legislator if you will.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Subbie,Be careful of your replies and pastes. I never wrote this which you attribute to jaywill (me): So whoever did say that to you, I will let that person respond to the rest of your comments in that post.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You right, Sorry. You were quoting Jefferson. I'm not sure how close that would be given the things you have discribed as his belief. He may have had a mixture of personalized ideas which were difficult to pin down.Deism believes in God but that this God does not interfer or intervene in the world, especially in miraculous ways. But as I quoted the socalled Father of English Deism - they did have thier Supreme God. Since he is a sect to himself in his own words, why are you so sure you can locate him as a Deist as the closest belief? What fixation? The word "christianity" is not even a positive word for me. I never speak of my belief in "Christianity". Nor have I ever written here that I participate in Christianity. I do speak about the living Person of Jesus Christ. Are you baiting for a subject change of some kind? You want to argue about Anthomy Flew there?So Anthonty Flew finally decided that Atheism was not the best choice of a world view (whatever Flew calls himself now). People change after time. Eldredge Cleaver (a Marxist leaning Black Panther) opposed the Christian Gospel then became a Christian. And then became more sympathetic to Islam. Bob Dylon embraced the Christian Gospel for awhile. I think he latter leaned towards Judiasm.I think sometimes these celiberty types feel "used" by religious folk. So they react by distancing themselves from Christianity after having believed in Jesus as Lord.Oh John Lennon, according to one biographer, also had his time of believing in Jesus Christ.Anthony Flew can change his mind about the existence of a God too. Flexibility comes with age.And one other thing, Before you call me a Fundamentalist or a Fundy why don't you ASK me what I think is most fundamental to the Bible? You never asked me what I thought were the most fundamental issues in the Bible.I know name calling is more convenient. You have nothing better than the Gospel of Jesus or better than Jesus. If you did you'd tell us. I don't think you have any answers for the big questions of life.I question that you could even tell us why you are here in the world or what the purpose of your life is. But if I am wrong go ahead.Most people I come across like yourself will react by saying "Why does there have to be a purpose anyway?"Do you have something more precious and more valuable than Jesus Christ? What is it? Even more off vien was your failed attempt to portray him as Anti - Theist.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : Flew changed his mind about the existence of a God.