Anything Divine in the Bible?

Coragyps, If the moderators would permit I'd like to examine your challenge here.Could you demonstrate to me a concrete example of how the teachings of Jesus run diametrically opposed to the commands of God in Deutoronomy and Joshua ?Give me your strongest example/s first, not your weaker ones as if to save your strongest for latter.Remember, the issue is - Are Jesus's teachings Diametrically Opposed to what God commands in Deutoronomy and Joshua?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

i do see how it may be contradictorywhen you read the accounts of war in the old testament, it does appear that wayGod is said to have love as his main attribute...but he also has 'Justice' and at times, as is seen in the OT, his justice has moved him to act in behalf of the enemies of his peoplebut what would you rather? a God who sits back and does nothing when his people are being attacked, or a God who is willing to stand up and put his power to work in behalf of his people?i know which i would rather.

Where was God when over 6 million Jewish men, women and children were brutally murdered by the Nazis during WWII? Where was God when they tried to exterminate the Poles, Gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, political opponents, living in Germany and other occupied countries?Where was God when over 1.5 million Armenians were brutally massacred by the Ottoman Turks in the early 20th century?Where was God when nearly 1 million Tutsi were ethnically cleansed i.e. butchered in Rwanda in 1994?Where was he when 6 to 7 million people died in the Ukrain under Joseph Stalin's communist regime?Where was he when Pol Pot systematically murdered nearly 26% (1.7 million) of his population in Cambodia in the name of communism.Also, in probably the largest ethnicide event in human history, nearly 90% (10 to 20 million) of the Native American population was wiped out in 400 years of genocide against the Native Americans by European explorerers, colonists and settlers in the name of Christianity, the Manifest Destiny and even sometimes under the direct orders of American Presidents themselves i.e. Andrew Jackson's Indian Removal Acts.Where was God when for nearly 1000 years the Christian world and even the holy Roman Catholic Church has brutally attacked and murdered people of other ethnicities and religions?And these are just a meager few of the more recent ethnocide events of the last millenia.So if your god is so good then why has he been silent about the millions upon millions of innocent human beings slaughtered in human history? Why does he seem to play favorites to one race of people?No, it is up to human beings to police ourselves and to protect the innocent and unprotected.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I dare not offer a flippant answer to a tough question like this.However, Israel was oppressed for about 400 years in Egypt before God led them out in a glorious deliverance. In doing so he crushed Egypt to the point that they were [too] humiliated to record it in their history for future generations to know.During those four centries many Jews died in slavery. God did act eventually in His time. That is my main point. The Exodus was the divine answer.I believe that the reemergence of Israel as a nation was a divine reaction to the Holocost. The HOlocost certainly provided a desperate incentive for the Jews and much of the world to be opened to the reformation of thier nation. If your concept is that the existence of God should mean that no one ever suffers, then that would make God only the God of comfortable situations.If you read the Psalms you'll see that God was not only God to people in rosy comfortable situations. He was also their God in very tough and problematic circumstances too.The Pharisees taunted Jesus the Son of God on the cross. Why would not His Father come and rescue Him is He was Son of God. "Come down from the cross. And then we will believe."I would not be fooled by the expectation that if God is then there should be no one who is in a difficult situation in need of victory over suffering and even death.History may be headed in that direction in eternity. But for now, God is not only the God of people in comfortable circumstances. He is also the God of people in terribly difficult circumstances. While we are at it may we ask this too? Where was God when YOU were committing your sins against people ? Why did God not immediately slay you for your sins against people you have wronged?How did a big sinner like you get away with so much? Where was God?Do you think the fact that you can point out the crimes of others makes you somehow more righteous than they ?Hint. No one is getting away with anything. The last judgment will be the last judgment.I note your moral outrage. But this does not mean that God is not real or available. And you might turn the question towards yourself. Your sins, were not immediatly judged when you were enjoying them either. This does not mean that there will not be a day of reckoning for what you did.So you too, like Pol Pot, need to repent to be saved from God's righteous final judgment. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.Do you think because you didn't do exactly what Pol Pot did you will escape the judgement of God ? Did you ask "Where was God when I was taking advantage of someone for my own selfish ends?"Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

What else do you need, Jaywill?

The Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust. The Holocaust was caused by Europeans specifically the German Nazi's not Arabs. So why are the Arabs punished for something they did not do.Besides, not all Jews support the methods Israel have used to forcibly migrate all the Palestinian Arabs out of Israel. There is a division even in Israel of the Zionists and those who would seek more amiable relations with their Arab neighbors. This Zionism is not confined to the Jewish ethnic group either, unfortunately there are Zionist Christians who urge Israel to take back the West Bank and other contested lands to fulfill their interpretation of the Bible's prophecies. By the way, I am not anti-Semitic, my grandmother's is from Jewish German ancestry and my brother-in-law is Jewish. That was not my point I was making. I was addressing Peg's statement: . My answer is that your god chose to do nothing and did not put a stop to the murder of millions of innocent people. This is not about being 'comfortable', this is about life and death!However, since you brought it up. Why is it that your god deliberately morally contradicts himself throughout the Bible? In the Bible, he not only condones but also commands the murder of children, slavery, rape and other atrocities.Many Christians liken God to a father, however how many fathers would lead there families to murder their neighbors and enslave their neighbors children. What kind of sick, sadistic father would do this? Where? Can you produce a single shred of evidence that this mysterious god of your exists? And why has he done nothing to stop any of these atrocities? According to your logic, your god would have to self-annihilate because of the pain and death he has deliberately caused to humankind.How do you know what I have and have not done? Now you are going to judge me? Go take a hike. How do you know what I having "gotten away with"? You do not even know me? Who is doing the judging here Jay? What do you mean by righteous? Am I more moral according to the moral codes adopted by most of today's humanity? Yes, I am more moral than Adolph Hitler and Pol Pot! Am I perfect in a moral way? No. Who is? Not even god is by your own standards. That includes your god! Your sad attempt to convert me is disturbing. Quoting scripture at me is useless. I have read the bible and it is full of contradictions. The problem is that if God is the god of the OT I do not want anything to do with him, based on an ethical standpoint. Why is our moral standard today higher than that of the OT? Have you ever though of that? Why is it wrong for slavery and ethnic cleansing in today's modern society, yet your god condoned and commanded it over 4000 years ago? Again, why are you trying to turn this around? However, to answer your damn question, do you really think me committing small infractions of our moral code is anywhere equal to the murder of millions of people? I will be humble and say I make mistakes everyday but that is not near the havoc that some tyrants have caused our human race.I asked these questions to get you to think. They are rhetorical and not meant to be taken literally. I see no evidence of god's existence. Even if I did, if he were to be considered a moral and good god he would not be the god of the Bible who needlessly inflicts pain and death wherever he turns.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

And god couldn't figure out a way to do this that didn't require the murder of 6 million Jews?

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Quote me where I said they did ? I don't know. But tension between Arab and Jew goes back to Genesis times.My point was that God was behind the scenes just has he was in the book of Esther when bod things happened to the Jews were turned by God to further His program with them. And His program with them involves His intention to reach and bless the Gentiles through them.So your point of "the absent God" does nor persuade me.
I was not inviting you to a full scale political debate on the region. I am more interested in Bible Study - what does it really mean?I do not think an absent apathetic God is witnessed by the things you mentioned. My reasons for the most part are because of biblical testimony. I did refer to the reamergence of modern day Israel which has many political problems.Generally I was pointing out the sovereignty of God over history. I think He knows what He is doing. Maybe you should take your discussion to the political forum if EvC has one. I don't think God did nothing. I think God did not act as you expected Him to act.If you read the Bible you may have noticed some instances when He went so far to defend Israel that it altered the behavior of nature itself.I believe the rocks raining down on the Canaanites demonstrates this. I believe the torrential flood at a crucial battle in the book of Judges demonstrates this. And the most famous case of the sun and moon remaining in their places until the defeat of the enemies of Isreal.Did you ask what kind of God would do these things?These instances proved that the God of Israel would altar the common behavior of the universe itself to care for His divine purpose with Israel. However, He may not ALWAYS act in that way.Did you ask what kind of God would part the Red Sea to deliver the Hebrews from the oppressive Egyptian Empire?These demonstrations however, do not mean that God would ALWAYS act in that manner. It is about trust in Him. Many Christians were also not spared. But the saying went about - The blood of the witnesses was the seed of the saints"Their terrible persecutions spread the Christian faith. Sometimes the executioners became disciples of Christ themselves when they witnessed how the Christians died strong in their belief.We cannot put God in a box and expect that He will always act the same way in every situation. And I am more impressed with the testimony of people like Corrie Ten Boom who was in a concentration camp with Jews. Or of Watchman Nee who was locked up in a Communist prison for 20 years.The enduranance and indistructible nature of their trust in God, in spirte of it all, impresses me more than your moral outrage. God still is. Since you brought it up - on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most righteous, where would you place yourself and where would you place Jesus Christ ?On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most just, where would you place yourself and where would you place the God of the Bible?And if you rank yourself higher, how come you have not had such an impact on human history as the God of the Bible?When are you going to come out of the closet and give a book that rivals the Bible if God has a thing or two to learn at your feet about ethics ? Where is the referee or the higher standard of morality by which you plan to judge God ? Are you the source of a higher standard of morality than God ?Should we be able to broadcast your whole life in every action on this computer screen, would we see a glorious person who is qualified to rebuke God and correct Jesus Christ?As a child my father did things I did not understand then. My mother gave me an enema. I hated it. Latter I matured and learned that this was her care for me.I allow room for the fact that in my immaturity pershaps some actions I read about of God are incorrectly understood by me. I don't expect a book from God to have only things in it that I would agree with. My personal life testifies to me that in some areas probably I am sinful and misunderstanding of a higher level of righteousness.Maybe you think a book from God would only have things which you agreed with from beginning to end. But does your life suggest that you would understand some higher morality than you have lived ?Maybe we should ask some of the people who really know you well. The best place to see where history is going is the 21rst and 22nd chapter of the book of Revelation. You never read about the climax of human history under God's full salvation ?No death, no tears, no desease, a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells. And the rebels and unbelievers in the lake of fire.In the mean time my God says that He desires that none would perish but all would come to repentence. IF there is no God then where do you get your standard of morality by which you are outraged?IF there is no Ultimate Governor then your atheism or agnosticism offers a weak basis for moral outrage.This reminds me of the child who want to slap his dad on the face. But he can't reach his face without sitting on his lap.So you borrow ultimate morality in order to condemn God. If there is no God then there is really no solid bases for you to be upset by any behavior. We will all melt peacefully into dust. There will be no reckoning to any Final Judge. So where do you get your moral outrage ?What difference does it make if there is no God ? Nope. It is just that physical death is not the end of it all.Have you heard of the resurrection ?Have you heard of "All things work together for good to those who love God and, to those who are called according to His purpose."?The story of the Bible from Genesis through Revelatiuon is the story of God overcoming obstacles against His eternal purpose of all kinds. The Bible didn't end with the murder of Abel by Cain. Nor did it end with any other of the evil things which we might expect to thwart the divine plan.Are you outraged at the crucifixion of the most innocent Man, Jesus. Did you ring your hands and ask where was God when this Righteous Man was being nailed to a cross? The disciples of Jesus did.Then they became witnesses of His glorious resurrection. We believe in the God of resurrection. I know that you are a fallen human being. Maybe not as bad as myself but bad nonetheless.You're a sinner - a self righteous one perhaps, but a typical garden variety sinner just the same.Is there no one you have come accross in your life time who would not smile standing beside your death bed ? Think about it. I bet there is. I know because "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."Jesus Christ was not only sinless, He was gloriously sinless. Are you glorious? Have you like Jesus led a life which was glorious ? I doubt it just a little bit.But thank God Jesus loves sinners like me and, yes, like you too. You didn't read the Bible well. God is PERFECT in righteousness and in holiness. Perfection is perfect.God will not hold you up in comparison to Hitler. He will hold you up in comparison to PERFECT - that is Jesus Christ.Let me put it to you this way. You need redemption through the death and resurrection of Jesus.If you have to answer to this perfect God for one sin, you'll never make it.Imagine a room full of broken bowls. Some are broken in 100 pieces, some in 50, some in 30 pieces, some in 10 pieces, some in only 2 or 3 pieces.Those who are broken in two pieces may say "At least I am not that broken. THis one over here is really more broken. He's into 30 pieces. I am only broken into two pieces."The point is that they are ALL broken.The point is that to the perfect God we are ALL sinners. We are all in need of redemption and salvation and transformation.You may say that you are better off than some other guy who is really bad. YOu still are broken and are a sinner.I have to take that hike now. See you latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I won't speak for DA, but as for myself, I live among other people in an arrangement called "society." These societies all have standards of morality. Even troops of baboons have something closely resembling morality. That's because they are social creatures like humans are. Gods are not a requirement in the morality game. Having intelligent critters living together is sufficient to produce moral codes all by by itself.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

'Cept when it comes to smiting babies and having she-bears kill kids, and such as that. And creating Guinea worms and typanosomes.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

You stated earlier: If this divine reaction to the Holocost is for God to reinstate the state of Israel (that is what it seems that you are implying here), than why are the Arabs being punished in the process? Your intrepretation that Israel has a god given right to reoccupy Palestine is part of the problem of what is happening in the Middle East. This adds fuel to the fire of already strained political tensions between Israel and the rest of the Middle East. In no way am I advocating that Arabs have a right to commit terrorism in response to the forced settlements by Israel, however it is important that we understand the underlying causes for the conflict that happening over there and stop egging Israel to take on the rest of the Middle East as many Christians (and Jews) here in the US have done for the last 60+ years. Ok I will get off my soapbox now. No, but if you make an assertion of divine support for a particular ethnic group you better back it up with solid evidence. Otherwise I will discuss this in depth. This debate board is all about backing up your assertions with facts and evidence otherwise go to a religous discussion board where everyone agrees with you. It means nothing if it does not apply to reality. I could care less what you believe but if you make an unsubstantiated assertion on a discussion board i.e. "God supports the nationalization of Israel" than you better be able to back up your assertions with evidence. Sure why not? What does this have to do with anything? Are you trying to justify the "good" things that you say god did in the OT against the attrocities that he caused to occur? Does this not go against your premise that no matter what you do good it cannot overcome a single thing you do wrong? So how does this apply to your god? I have read the story of Corrie Ten Boom and many others as well. Do you honestly think only Christians do the only good in this world? Should I list all the good things that atheists, agnostics and non-christians have done that have made this world a better place? I am not trying to "impress you with my moral outrage." I am trying to illustrate that your god you describe in the Bible is not as good as you think he is even by your own standards. Would that be the stories we here in the Bible about Jesus Christ? We do not even know how accurate these stories are. That would be like asking how I racked up with the story of Buddha or Confuciuous. I have no clue who the real Jesus was? So I can't even compare. What difference does it make anyways. Stop turning this around. It isn't about me. I would be higher as most decent human beings on this planet. I am not sending my daughter to eternal torment if she doesn't believe in me or rejects me. If my daughter didn't want anything to do with me, I would still love her. If she was in trouble (i.e. drugs, etc) I would not even hesitate to go and save her. Would your god do this? Why is sending everyone to hell who doesn't believe in someone who hasn't spoken with humanity or even made us aware of his existence for 2000+ years. It would be like me going away from family for 50 years and then expecting them to recognise me when I got back (except god has never come back). Why does your god plant fossils of millions of extinct animals and plants, decieve just about every intelligent person into thinking that the Earth and Universe are billions of years old and make the Bible contradict itself? Why should we trust your god??? I don't need a 2000+ year old book to tell me about ethics. We have many codes of ethics from throughout history which have evolved and given humans a more equal footing i.e. The Constitution, the UN Bill of Human Rights, etc. This is a religous argument. You have not provided any evidence as to why we should believe your god is real. Not that I can think of. There has been no one that I have treated badly where they would smile or spit on my grave. Have you? You have no clue who I am or my religious background. Don't assume you do. I am tired of certain arrogant religious people (not all, my wife is a Christian) who think they have the God given right to berate and ridicule anyone who disagrees with their religious beliefs.This is not a religious conversion board, go take your religious banter elsewhere.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

You mean like last century when secularist anti Biblical governments which slaughtered over a hundred million of their own citizens including babes and like pagan jungle cultures which ate their neighbors and their kids as well as others which sacrificed children in fires?Or perhaps you have in mind so many anti Biblical cultures today like India (Hindu), Buddhist cultures, Islamic nations and communist nations such as China, Viet Nam etc where Christian families are killed and tortured and others whose homes and churches are burned.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Why anyone would ever get the idea that you're a bigot is beyond me.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

What a short-sided bigoted view of the world you have. What is an anti-Biblical culture? Can you please define that?You need to study history and religion before making such ignorant and uninformed remarks.Yes, Christian missionaries have been targets of attack throughout history but this is not unique to Christianity. Persecution has been targeted against people of all religions and ethnicities sometimes from other cultures, ethnicities and religions and sometimes by their own i.e. the Roman Catholic vs Protestant conflict over Northern Ireland. In India both sides of the religious equation: Christians and Hindus have been accused of atrocities as seen here: India's vengeful Christians turn to murder as Hindus step up their killing campaign and Christians in India face prospect of more attacks by extremists.As far as Buddhism, this religion explicitly teaches the sanctity of all life and is deeply pacifistic. If you harm other humans in the Buddhist "culture" than you are not practicing true Buddhism.In fact you have it backwards about Vietnam, many of the Buddhists in Vietnam were persecuted and sometimes killed not by the communist Vietcong but by our own allies, the southern Vietnamese Catholic regime of President Diem. In fact it was the French who colonized and by sword point converted many Vietnamese from Buddhism to become Catholics in the 19th and early 20th century. It was the French Catholics that enacted laws specifically targeted to taking away the rights of the Buddhist population. Several Buddhists committed acts of self-immolation in order to bring to light President Diem's corrupt regime which eventually was overthrown by a bloody coupe-de-ta by his own generals.So your claim that Christianity is somehow innocent of violence and is the only religion subject to persecution is totally untrue and is a bold face lie.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

quote:

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You need to study history and religion before making such ignorant and uninformed remarks.

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Demonstrably false.For evidence I offer Buz's posting history.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat