Anything Divine in the Bible?

You mean in contrast to the medieval kingdoms of Europe, where almost everyone was a Christian, and nobody did anything bad, especially not massacring Jerusalem when they took it? Oops, they did didn't they? Oh, and why is your country so violent, with all it's "good christians" as opposed to Europe, where most people are secularist? And another one, Pedophile priests of course are doing nothing wrong either?

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I hunt for the truth

Let's go back a century before, to the 18th century when China had the Christian Taipeng Rebellion which according to the lowest estimate killed the fifth largest amount of people in history and the highest estimate the most people in the entire history of wars, civil disturbances, and disaster.I realize that you appear to desire to exceed this number with apparent calls to holy war against all non-fundamentalist Christians, or in other words, well over 95% of the world's population as your false gospel of hate and fear dictates. But once again, sorry Buz, you just don't have the personal charm of Hong Xiuquan when it comes to speaking for god.{ABE} This is what happens when people read into the Bible only their own hate and fear (and divinity-sized ego) while rejecting the clear message of Jesus as related in the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.The message of peace, forgiveness, and love thy neighbor which so many Christians reject.Like jar, I will silently pray for you Buz, so that you may see the real message of Jesus, or at least the one that the vast majority of people take from the Gospels when they take the Gospels seriously.{/ABE}Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.Edited by anglagard, : forgot signature, if it is relevant anywhere, it is most relevant here.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Coragyps, Jesus refered to Deuteronomy 6:5 about God commanding such love. And you think that what happened to Achan diametrically opposes this teaching of Jesus, which He quoted from the Law in the Torah.The implication is that Achan was not loved because he was executed for breaking a commandment of God.However, Joshua's command to execute Achan was not a matter of his personal feeling towards Achan. It was a matter that God judged Achan because his hyprocrisy nearly sabatoged the entire nation. Achan's selfish act in going against God's command to devote everything in Jericho to destruction:"But as for you, keep yourselves from what has been devoted to [destruction], lest you devote [yourselves to destruction] by taking what has been devoted and you make the camp of Israel of something devoted [to destruction] and bring trouble to it." (Joshua 6:18)Firstly, I object to your implication that love makes it impossible for God to carry out justice. The lesson at Jericho was that none of the Israelites was totally independent. Thier standing before God effected the whole nation as a unit. The secret sin of Achan could be cause for thirty-six of his fellow Hebrews to be killed and thousands to flee for thier lives. This happened in a battle against Ai (Joshua 7:1-9)"So about three thousand men from the people went up there, but they fled before the men of Ai. And the men of Ai struck some of them, about thirty-six men; and they pursued them ... And the heart of the people melted and became like water... And Joshua resnt his cloths and fell to the ground upon his face before the Ark of Jehovah until the evening, he and the elders of ISrael; and they put dust on thier heads." (Jos. 7:4-6)The cause of these deaths, this defeat, the loss of nerve to the nation was the selfish sin of Achan.You imply that because God exposed the hidden sin, the cause of national defeat, and the punishment of Achan, that this was against love. In other words there can be no justice where there is love.Please notice that Joshua's tone to Achan was not loveless. But it did turn him to consider the glory of God:"And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give glory to Jehovah the God of Israel, and make confession to Him. And tell me what you have done; do not hide anything from me." (Jos. 7:19)There is no personal hatred in this. He calls Achan, the man who has just caused the death of thirty six men, his son.I do not say that the stoning of Achan and family was not harsh. It was terribly harsh. But I consider some points:1.) This was not the only time that the selfish disobedience of one of God's people brought about weakness in spiritual warfare to the larger congregation. Of course it was not. But this was one instance when God used the incendent to make an example to teach further generations.God did not always act this way or we would have seen similar actions in practically every war battle Israel fought.2.) The family being stoned along with Achan is harsh. I admit that. But this probably did not effect their eternal destiny. I suspect that Achan and his family will be seen in the eternal New Jerusalem. At least I would like to think so.3.) Followers of God need to be educated that thier whole household is effected by their actions and behavior. Innocent members of your household may suffer because you as the head of the home are in rebellion against God.Achan's hidden sin caused thirty six men to be killed. What about the sorrow of the families of those soldiers? And there is no joy in Joshua's obligation to execute Achan."And Joshua said, Why have you troubled us? Jehovah will trouble you this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones; and they burned them with fire when they had stoned them with stones. Then they erected over hin a great heap of stones, which is there to this day ... and Jehovah turned from the fierceness of His anger. Therefore the name of tht place is called the Valley of Achor to this day." (7:25,26)God still hates sin. God has made loving provision for the redemption of the sinner He loves.God made an example and a instructive memorial of that incident. By far God did not repeat exactly that action for each and every other time unfaithfulness of one Hebrew was the cause of national weakness and defeat.4.) It is inadaquate to teach that God's love ties His hands so that He cannot execute justice. What is needed instead is to see how God's love and God's righteous judgment work together.And that we see on the crosss of Christ. We all, as guilty as Achan, can accept that the Son of God received the divine justice in our place. He died for our sins. This was both God's love at work and God's righteousness at work. Justice was imputed on our behalf through Christ's death on His cross.So both the great love of God and the righteous justice of God coordinated together.Now would you say that the secular judge who has to sentence me to prison for the injury and mugging of another citizen betrays that he has no love for me? Does love mean that I can do anything I want with no fear of consequences?So I see no teaching of Jesus, diametrically opposite, to the incident in Joshua chapter 7.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Isn't it amazing what the mind of a fundy can justify.You admit yourself that Achan's family being slaughtered was 'harsh' (quite an understatement), then go on to justify it in your mind.The slaughtring of Achan's family is unjust and evil, you know it, I know it, and everyone else knows it.The only good thing about this story is that it is a fairytale, since archaeology has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the 'victory' at Jericho is a myth.It appears to me that God can commit, or allow, all sorts of evil acts, and the fundy will find some way to justify it.What a sad and pathetic life to lead.Edited by Brian, : spellin

Brain writes:Ah Brian the ever present critic. Since you possess an sense of justice beyond that of an eternal God, tell us what the punishment for a crime should be, then tells us how you arrive at that conclusion, then tells us how you would be correct or incorrect if someone disagrees with you, which one is right or wrong and how do you condeme another for the position they hold on the decision they chose to make concerining what constitutes justice in any manner.What a sad and pathertic life to lead, where you cant even begin to demonstrate or justify not a single one of your actions. Poor ole God is only operating from a eternal perspective, based on ominiscient knowledge,how stupid he must be without intellectuals help like Brian.You cant even justify a single on one your actions against a subjective morality, yet you call fundys pathetic.Lord help us without Brians finite insight. Give me a break.Tell me Brian what are the wages of sin? Key words in this sentence, "It appears to me", wow there we go again. Please tell us where you gained this eternal perspective from being a pathetic little creature in a pathetic little galaxy?The fundy is wrong and God is evil and Brian is correct. Sounds like rationalization to me, but what do I know Im just a fundy.Tell me Brian, why dont we throw the Lion and the bear in the clink when they commit thier crimes against the deer? Is there something different about them verses us? Why stop a serial killer from his actions of killing and eating another person, maybe to Hanibal Lector this is perfectly normal behavior. What is your criteria for deciding he is wrong or inappropriate? Remember us fundys are just pathetic little people waiting for you overwhelming insight to guide us. Oh Brian please lead us.In the scriptures there are numerous examples, where God despenses justice immediately as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapeter 5., same God in the NT as in the OT. Who can know the hearts and minds of men except a being that possess all knowledge. Certainly God knew that there was no repentance in thier hearts and that there possibilty never would have been. The point is that, as in the cases in the OT, the ones in the NT are the same God and the same sense of eternal justice is depensed from an eternal perspective.On more side note. I think most of us dont like Jaywills posts because they expose us for what we are, including myself, dirty little sinners.If what he writes, the scriptual support he provideds and the way in which he communicates it are not INSPIRATION, then it is just this side of it. So, from the Jaywill fan club, let me say, WHOO HOO.D BertotEdited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

Dammit Brian,Look what you did, your brought Bertat out of the woodworks now. I am not sure Brians reaction to this onslaught of religious bigotry (and yes Bertot this is religious bigotry go look it up in the dictionary) but here is mine. Isn't that was the judicial system we created is for? Has not man self-govern himself? Have we not created our own laws and regulations? Have not humans self-govern themselves long before the Bible was ever written down? And no, the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence and UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights are found nowhere in the Bible. There are no universal rights written into the Bible. Nowhere do I see the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness written in the Bible. What actions can we not justify? Why do we need a supernatural entity in the sky to tell us how to govern ourselves and to make our own moral codes? Because they are not harming humans. If they kill humans than we normally go out and hunt them down if they are a danger to the rest of human society. Animals do not have the intelligence and self-control that humans have. We are just more evolved both biologically and socially and so do have the capability to restrain our actions more than the rest of the animals. However, even higher intelligent animals such as mammals have their own forms of "moral codes" i.e. they usually don't arbritarily kill members of their own species. When animals kill other animals it is usually a. for food or b. collective self-protection (to protect themselves and their families) "Normal behavior" is dictated by the standards of human societies. Since we know live in a global human society so to speak we have to answer the moral majority of human beings. The moral majority stipulates that murder is wrong not because some old guy in the sky dictates it to us but because it is destructive to the existence of our own species (as well as the emotional baggage it generates).Like I said earlier, I could care less if you believe the moon is made of cheese (by the way there are people who actually believe this as shown here) or the earth is flat as a pancake. However when you make religious statements on a science discussion board you better be able to back them up with hard evidence not by bare assertions. Or is it that you like his posts because they reinforce your beliefs? Think it what you will but I have yet to see any clear evidence backing up your beliefs. So WHOO WHOO back to you.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Bertot's words are generous towards me. And I appreciate the encouragement.Now I would like to hear Corygyp's response and another example.
But Rrhain objects: The account is purposely harsh. But were they not warned? Did they not see how God fought for their nation ? The history of the miracles, the deliverance, the sustaining in the wilderness, the manna from heaven, the water in a barren place, the provision and guidance for 40 years ... do you think all of that was worth ignoring for a Babylonian garment and a wedge of gold?This is what I believe about God's rignteousness:He is "a God of truth and without iniquity; just and right is He" (Deut. 32:4)In the smiting and captivity of Israel God was just - Howbeit You are just in all that is brought upon us; for You have done right, but we have done wickedly." (Neh. 9:33; Isaiah 45:21; Zeph 3:5"The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and holy in all His works." Psalm 145:17Abraham pressed God repeatedly to insure himself that God would be just in His sparing any worthy people in the city of Sodom."Will not the Judge of the whole earth do justly?" (Gen 18:25). I agree with Abraham. I do not put my trust in any higher referee or court which will teach God, instruct God, or discipline God for error. I don't think Brian can do this job or knows of anyone or anything which can.In the New Testament Jesus prayed " O RIGHTEOUS Father, the world has not known You." (John 17:25)Jesus' credentials are above question to me. And Jesus says His Father is the Righteous Father.God says that righteousness is the foundation of His throne. I take that to mean that if God were to be unrighteous His basis to be the Ruler and Governor of the universe would be damaged. Righteousness is the foundation of the throne of His authority.Even in His final pouring out of His wrath in the great tribulation to come, the voices say "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty; JUST and TRUE are Your waus You king of nations" (Rev. 15:3).Robert Govette writes: Having said all of this, having established God's hatred for unrighteousness and sin we have this good news indeed:"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)The audience is Christians. The audience is men and women, boys and girls who have believed in Jesus the Lord and Savior. He is faithful and RIGHTEOUS tp forgive our sins. IF we trust in Christ God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive our sins for the sake of Christ's finished work on Calvary.This passage does not say that God is faithful and merciful to forgive. It says that it is the RIGHTEOUS thing for Him to do. So do you see how God's righteousness also works in our favor as sinners?If we believe in Christ God is RIGHTEOUS to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We can be bold and say "Father God, because of Jesus death for me, you HAVE to forgive me. Whether you like me or you don't like me. You are legally bound by your own righteous nature, for cleanse me for all my unrigheousness. Righteousness is the very foundation of Your throne God. And because of Jesus the Son of God and His sacrifice on the cross, You must do the RIGHTEOUS thing and forgive me for His sake."Please consider how this righteousness of God, in Christ, works wonders in our behalf. He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins who have believed in the death and resurrection of His Son for our salvation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

D.A., How can you regard my factual statement as a form of bigotry? Can you refute my statement as non-historical/non-factual? An anti-Biblical culture is one which persecutes anyone who publically displays a Bible, dispenses or propagates Bibles or Biblical doctrine, and who practices or professes Biblical New Testament Christianity or Biblical Old Testament Judaism. Yada, yada. Where is your factual refutation? I'm talking about citizens of the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu cultural nations. Anyone who converts to Christianity in these nations have been consistently persecuted by violence, loss of homes and churches, torture and death. LOL! Wikipedia says otherwise. As well, I get the VOM monthly magazine which has cited many cases of extreme persecution of Christian nationals in Bud dist cultural nations. I believe one of these was Tibet and another Burma. (Embolding mine for emphasis) The facts are that the persecution persists today. In the last VOM monthly, on April, 2008 a Viet Nam pastor, Y-ben Hdok, was executed by police in Daklak province for pastoring a congregation of 132 not sanctioned by the government. In northern Viet Nam only about a dozen church buildings are allowed. They are severely restricted in the south as well. Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix quotes

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hold on for a minute. Did Jefferson write something into the US Constitution about the Creator endowing us with something?We hold certain truths to be self evident, Jefferson wrote. Did he mention the Creator or not?Does Jefferson appeal than to a Creator God to give legitimacy to these self evident truths ?Yes, I know Jefferson was a Diest (spelling?). That could mean that he accepted some of the Bible and dismissed other parts.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The problem Jawill is that you deliberately sidestep the issues of the god described in the OT as being vengeful, jealous, maniacal, and downright mean and what we in modern human society would consider evil.Our moral system today is nothing like what it was even 100 years ago much less 2000 years ago. Why is it that you accept these double standards of morality. You say on one hand "Love your neighbor" yet almost in the same sentance you say it is ok for god to obliterate an entire race of people.What if god told you to kill your newborn son, would you do it? What if he told you to enslave your coworker and make his wife your sexual slave or give him to your grown son to have for his wife? What if he told you it was ok to make your daughter a sex slave? What if he told you to build a boat because he was going to destroy all the life on this planet and you were the only one who was worthy to live, would you do it? What if he told you to lead an army of fellow believers into Canada, slaughter anyone who resisted (including children and babies), loot their houses and set up your own theistic government, would you do it? What if he told you to jump off the Empire State building, would you do it? What if God told you that only he only speaks to you (in your head) but no one else, and if he told you to walk the width of the USA and tell everyone "The Kindom of God is at Hand" and "Repent or you will surely die", would you do it? What if God told you to go murder your neighbor and his children without question would you do it?Why do these only apply 4000 years ago but not now? Could you honestly say yes to everything listed above? Guess what, these types of stories are ALL listed in the Bible.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This thread is about whether there is anything divine in the Bible. The religion of the popes and bishops of the RCC were neither Biblical or divine. It was the true saints and protestant non RCC believers who were persecuted and murdered by the torturous and murderous popes and bishops of the inquisitions who were divine during those Dark Ages.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

quote:

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Did Jefferson write something into the US Constitution about the Creator endowing us with something?

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No.

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We hold certain truths to be self evident, Jefferson wrote. Did he mention the Creator or not?

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Yes, but not your idea of a creator. Jefferson was not a christian. The closest label to describe his ideas would be deist. Should you entertain any idea that Jefferson thought our country would be based on or derived from the bible, consider this quote: -Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813, found here.If you think that the rights to life, liberty and the happiness of pursuit are from the bible, I'd be most curious to see where you think they can be found.

quote:

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Yes, I know Jefferson was a Diest (spelling?). That could mean that he accepted some of the Bible and dismissed other parts.

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It could mean that he believes in the tooth fairy and accepts parts of Poor Richard's Almanac as divine. Do you have any actual evidence that he did accept some of the bible? Can you show which parts he accepted and which he didn't? Most relevant to this topic, do you have any evidence whatsoever that he felt that any part of the bible was divinely inspired? Or are you content to rest comfortably in ignorance of actual facts, relying instead on hope and possibilities?{ABE}Here are a few more quotes from Jefferson relating to the divinity of the bible and its relation to our country, just for fun: Think long and hard before you again cite Jefferson in support of your bible. Edited by subbie, : As notedEdited by subbie, : ???

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I knew you were going to bring this up. What I said was that these rights are no where mentioned in the Bible. Jefferson's first draft of the Declaration of Independence (before reviewed by John Adams and Benjamin Franklin) stated \This is also bolstered by his other writings about inalienable rights seen below: and Notice no mention of a Creator or God, just a creation (Deists believe in a impersonal supernatural cause that essentially created the universe without further direct intervention). Also "creation" is sometimes used metephorically by scientists to imply a first event or cause as in the Big Bang creating the universe.John Adams revised copy of the DOI written in his own handrighting between June 11 and the 28 states: Sometime between then and its radification by Congress the words "that they are endowed by their Creator" were added in, most likely by the urging of Adams and Franklin.Jefferson's concept of unalienable rights was not entirely his own but rather was borrowed from and directly influenced by the writings of fellow enlightment philosopher and free thinker, John Locke, himself an Arian Christian (like John Adams, did not believe in the trinity). John Locke, like Jefferson and many of the founding fathers also believed in the seperation between religion and government.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Of course, they weren't really Christians, how could I have forgotten.Nice try Buz, but I don't think anyone will fall for that one.And by the way, you brought that point up, not me, I just use this example to show how wrong you are.

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I hunt for the truth

D A, I've covered this in the past but what you cite above is actions by the supreme creator who implemented specific consequential results of the fall of mankind which were deemed necessary by him for the preservation of the planet, humanity at large and for his kingdom which was to replace the paganistic cultures of Canaan with his messianic kingdom on earth which has been prophesied to soon come relative to the modern phenomena of the regathered Jews.The things you cite were for the preservation of humanity (flood/corrupted humanity) and solely applicable to the nation of Israel, etc.Of course, for one to have understanding of the above, one must be convinced that the Bible is, in fact, divinely inspired by the designer, creator and manager of the universe. I have no doubt whatsoever about that.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.