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Author Topic:   How many sons does God have?
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 106 of 151 (408304)
07-01-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by kbertsche
07-01-2007 2:43 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
I'm replying to my own post here to clarify. I had said:
So there are at least five different ways that the phrase "child of God" or "son of God" is used in the Bible.
I should have said that there are POTENTIALLY five ways that this phrase is used in Scripture. I am not yet convinced that the Bible ever uses this imagery of "all people" as jar and ringo claim. It may, but I haven't found it yet and haven't read it yet in any of your replies.
So here's my challenge for jar, ringo, and others: show us a biblical passage which clearly uses the imagery of God as father of ALL, or of ALL people as his children. What I'm looking for is a passage where the grammar and context clearly indicate ALL people, even those who do not follow God or Jesus.
The passages you've presented so far do not show this for the following reasons:
1) some imply "us all" or "we all". But in context these were written to either the nation of Israel, individual NT churches, or were spoken to followers of Jesus. These statements say nothing one way or the other regarding those who are outside these particular groups.
2) the Prodigal Son parable shows that some children can be wayward. But it is a logical fallacy to conclude from this that every person who is wayward is also a son. (If you are an earthly parent with one wayward child, that doesn't mean that all wayward children in the world are yours as well.) I think you guys start by assuming your conclusion with this argument.
3) you have used chains of logic with questionable links, such as equating "creator" and "father".
I'm asking for something simple: a passage which says (grammatically and in context0 that God is the father of ALL, or that ALL are his children, including those who do not and have never followed Him. I know that many want to assume this and that many talk this way, even in churches. But I'm not convinced yet that this idea is biblical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 07-01-2007 2:43 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 107 of 151 (408320)
07-01-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by kbertsche
06-30-2007 11:14 PM


Re: We are all Sons of God accordig to the Bible.
kbertsche writes:
Of course God is not sexist. But the Ancient Near Eastern and Hebrew cultures were. God was communicating to them in a way that they would understand, so he accomodated his communication to their cultural mileau.
I don't care if God called children 'sons' to satisfy some sexism on the part of a culture, but it's kind of irrelevent.
The question was 'How Many Sons Does God Have?' and I suppose you are saying that 'sons' includes women, bit it doesn't answer the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by kbertsche, posted 06-30-2007 11:14 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 108 of 151 (408321)
07-01-2007 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ICANT
07-01-2007 2:10 PM


Re: Re All Nations
You are worrying too much about the whereabouts of the brethren. I don't see that it matters.
To you, a brother of Christ is one who is born again. What you need to do is question whether Jesus was speaking about 'born again' people of any location. Now, I don't think one needs to be born again in order to receive the aid of a Christian, or that Jesus desires that we help only those 'born again'. The parable of the Good Samaritan would indicate otherwise.
Rather, I find it clear that Jesus speaks of ALL men as brothers in this case, because to suggest that He was rewarding only those acts performed upon other Christians is ludicris.
Besides, doesn't the word 'these' mean those here?
I am not disagreeing with you straight up, I believe it is more of a theological issue concerning the 'brothers of Jesus' in the flesh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2007 2:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2007 9:59 PM anastasia has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 151 (408325)
07-01-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by anastasia
07-01-2007 6:48 PM


Re: Re All Nations
Hi anastasia.
I am not disagreeing with you straight up, I believe it is more of a theological issue concerning the 'brothers of Jesus' in the flesh.
The judgment of the nations has nothing to do with born again sons of God. They have already been raptured and ressurected and given new bodies.
To you, a brother of Christ is one who is born again.
And the nation of Israel. These brethren Jesus is refering to is Israel not born again sons of God.
This judgment is about the nations that have helped the Jewish nation of Israel. Those humans that are still alive of the nations that have helped and not tried to destroy Israel will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. Those that have got together and tried to destroy Israel will be cast into the lake of fire.
Matt 25:34 (KJV) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Notice it says: come inherit the kingdom. It says nothing about eternal life, the new heaven and new earth. Just a kingdom because they were blessed by God the Father for helping these brethren.
Ringo and jar are saying that everyone that has ever been born is a son of God. So they are answering the question "How many sons does God have?" with everyone.
This creates a big problem. If everyone is a son of God then there will be no goat nations and the judgment is a farce. Because the Scripture says:
Roma 8:17 (KJV) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
If we be children then joint-heirs with Christ. That means where ever Christ is we would be there.
Since God created satan and his angels they would be there, so would the beast and the false prophet. Like I said a big problem.
How many sons does God have?
Jesus the only begotten Son of God, and everyone who has had a spiritual birth as Jesus told Nicodemus, "ye must be born again".

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by anastasia, posted 07-01-2007 6:48 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by anastasia, posted 07-02-2007 1:13 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 151 (408326)
07-01-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ringo
07-01-2007 4:46 PM


Re: Re All Nations
There is no "group that came with Jesus".
I could have sworn that there was a multitude with Jesus.
Matt 25:31 (YLT) `And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory;
Maybe I was mistaken and all the holy messengers was not a group.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ringo, posted 07-01-2007 4:46 PM ringo has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 111 of 151 (408340)
07-02-2007 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
07-01-2007 10:08 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
The context is relevant in individual statements, but if we want to know who the person really counts as her children, we have to look at the broadest statement.
Come now--you don't really believe this simplistic answer any more than I do.
Many words are occassionally used in a very broad or figurative sense to make a point. If we defer to the broadest usage as the "real" meaning or let this color all other uses, the word meaning will grow until the word loses its meaning.
The frequency of usage is a major factor. We've got to identify the rare and figurative uses. It would be better to take the most common usage as the "real" meaning, but even this is too simplistic.
The truth is that there is no one "real" meaning, no one single biblical meaning of "son of God". There are multiple biblical meanings. The phrase is used differently by different biblical authors at different times and places.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 07-01-2007 10:08 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 07-02-2007 3:33 AM kbertsche has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 151 (408365)
07-02-2007 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by kbertsche
07-02-2007 12:10 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
kbertsche writes:
The truth is that there is no one "real" meaning, no one single biblical meaning of "son of God".
Of course there's more than one usage. My point is that you can't take the narrowest meaning and exclude the broadest.
If Jesus even once included "all nations" as "His brethern", you are not entitled to prefer an alternate usage.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by kbertsche, posted 07-02-2007 12:10 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by kbertsche, posted 07-02-2007 6:27 AM ringo has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 113 of 151 (408386)
07-02-2007 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by ringo
07-02-2007 3:33 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
If Jesus even once included "all nations" as "His brethern", you are not entitled to prefer an alternate usage.
Unless He only used it in this broad sense once or twice, and generally used it in a narrower sense. We should probably take the phrase in its most common usage unless other factors indicate for us to take it differently.
And note that you are asking a different question. "Who are Jesus' brothers" is a different question than "Who are God's sons". While they are logically the same, they may normally be used in different senses (e.g. one may tend to be used more figuratively than the other).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by ringo, posted 07-02-2007 3:33 AM ringo has not replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 114 of 151 (408417)
07-02-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
07-01-2007 9:59 PM


Re: Re All Nations
I hope you got my point, ICANT.
What I mean to say is that there is a fundemental theological difference when one asks:
How many sons does God have?
or
How many brothers does Jesus have?
There many be no discrepency depending on denomination, but there is enough reason to declare either question completely open to interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2007 9:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2007 12:18 AM anastasia has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 115 of 151 (408476)
07-03-2007 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by anastasia
07-02-2007 1:13 PM


Re: Re All Nations
I hope you got my point, ICANT.
God has one more son than Jesus has brothers.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by anastasia, posted 07-02-2007 1:13 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by anastasia, posted 07-03-2007 3:54 PM ICANT has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 116 of 151 (408592)
07-03-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ICANT
07-03-2007 12:18 AM


Re: Re All Nations
ICANT writes:
God has one more son than Jesus has brothers.
So are you saying that Jesus was not the unique progeny of GOd?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2007 12:18 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 1:17 AM anastasia has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 151 (408646)
07-03-2007 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
06-30-2007 7:24 PM


All Are Not The Sons Of God.
jar writes:
The bulk of the evidence from the Bible is that all men are Sons of God.
If you want I can continue to post example after example from the Bible itself.
LOL. On the contrary the bulk shows just the opposite. The following list of verses clearly specify who the children of God are. I John 3:10, John 1:12, II John 9, Romans 8:14, Luke 20:34-36, Matthew 5:9, Matthew 13:38, 39, Galations 3:26, I John 5:18, I John 5:1. Genesis 6:2-4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7.
You have no such specific evidence to show that all humans are sons of God.
As has been pointed out and as I John states, there are children of God and children of the "evil one" refering to the devil. Verses in Matthew corroborate this as has been pointed out.
You choose to ignore the evidence. You can't just sweep all this evidence under the proverbial rug.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 06-30-2007 7:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-04-2007 12:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 151 (408654)
07-04-2007 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
07-03-2007 11:38 PM


Re: All Are Not The Sons Of God and other Buz nonsense
You have no such specific evidence to show that all humans are sons of God.
Of course I do Buz, look at Message 73 where I not only metioned the verses but included the content. I also offered to continue posting content if needed.
Have you ever even read the Bible Buz, cause it certainly doesn't look like it.
One of the beautiful thing about the Bible is that it is so filled with contradictions that you can quote mine it to prove any point you want.
You choose to ignore the evidence. You can't just sweep all this evidence under the proverbial rug.
Uh, Buz, unlike you and the other Biblical Christians, I do NOT ignore the evidence or sweep it under the proverbial rug, I actually include the sections and links to the whole passage so everyone can read it.
The audience can follow along and read the record and decide for themselves who it is that is being evasive.
And it ain't me.
You seem to like 1 John 3, which begins
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
and John 1 that begins
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and 2 John that says
3Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Shall I continue?
I know it is comforting for you to think that you are something special, but unfortunately, that could only be true if the God you create is some picayune little evil God.
GOD creates all that is, seen and unseen. That includes you and me and every other living thing. We are all His children, Christian and Atheist, Muslim and Jew, Hindu and Buddhist, Agnostic and Taoist, Satanist and Wiccan.
If you look at the passages you listed, you will find that they all deal with behavior. We all all born saved by God's Grace. It is a done deal.
We all are God's Sons.
Buz, you seem to think that the issue is somehow important. If you want to think that there is some exclusivity to the term Sons of God, then fine. Enjoy it.
On the other hand, I happen to thing the issue raised in the OP is just silly because it is talking about a fantasy, a myth made up to explain large bones that were found.
The rest of the issues, those raised about how parts of the Bible say one thing that is contradicted by other verses, often in the same book and chapter, is IMHO unimportant and irrelevant.
If you want to think some folk are not "Son's of God", fine. I have no problem with that. I just think it is simply silly and pretty much a waste of time, of no importance or relevance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2007 11:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by kbertsche, posted 07-04-2007 1:22 AM jar has not replied
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:45 AM jar has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 119 of 151 (408664)
07-04-2007 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by anastasia
07-03-2007 3:54 PM


Re: Sons
So are you saying that Jesus was not the unique progeny of GOd?
Jesus is the only betotten Son of God.
All other sons are those who by faith have believed God and been born of the Spirit as Jesus told Nicodemus. "Ye must be born again".

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by anastasia, posted 07-03-2007 3:54 PM anastasia has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 120 of 151 (408668)
07-04-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
07-04-2007 12:20 AM


Re: All Are Not The Sons Of God and other Buz nonsense
One of the beautiful thing about the Bible is that it is so filled with contradictions that you can quote mine it to prove any point you want.
It is only "filled with contradictions" for someone who approaches it in a very simplistic fashion. If you approach science in the same way you will think that wave-particle duality is a contradiction. A more sophisticated approach will assume that maybe these things are not contradictory, but reflect a more complex reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 07-04-2007 12:20 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by iceage, posted 07-04-2007 1:52 AM kbertsche has replied

  
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