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Author Topic:   The new teachings of Jesus
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2786 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 95 of 106 (357957)
10-21-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by truthlover
10-20-2006 5:40 PM


Re: What is Scripture?
Hello again truthlover. It's been a long time since we chatted. Good to see worthy opponents continuing in the fray.
truthlover writes:
Despite drbill's interpretation of 2 Tim 3:16,
Thank you for mentioning my argument.
I'd say it's pretty easy to see what first the Jews and then the Christians called Scripture.
Is it safe to assume that your vision includes all of the so-called 'Apocrypha;' not just First Enoch?
Seems to me the important thing is not so much what the masses called "scripture" but rather what Paul meant by "All scripture." In this connection I think it important, first of all, to clearly define what is meant by the word "scripture." Not what it means to people today but what it meant in the language of the time. This word has evolved from the Latin scriptura; (think 'script') meaning: something written.
If, on the other hand, one prefers to explore the Greek meaning, one encounters a like etymology. The word is 'Graphi;' (think 'graphic') meaning: something written.
In Greek, the Graphi ("scripture") of 1 Tim 3:16 is set in contrast to the Gramma ("scripture") of 1 Tim 3:15. From 'Gramma' we derive our word: Grammar. Gramma conveys a sense of formality and was used to describe legal documents. In verse 15, the one preceding that which is so often quoted, Gramma is combined with the word Hiera (Priest) which is translated "Holy" or "Sacred;" the latter being consistent with the Vulgate perspective: "sacras litteras," which, in case your Latin is rusty, is root to our word literature.
This is one detail among many which persuade me that Paul intends to contrast this line with the one which follows. Otherwise he might just as easily, more clearly and much less controvertibly have said:
"All of which is inspired by God."

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by truthlover, posted 10-20-2006 5:40 PM truthlover has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2786 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 96 of 106 (357962)
10-21-2006 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
06-23-2006 10:21 AM


Holy Scripture! - Bat Boy
Nuggin writes:
If someone were to add a new chapter to the Bible, one which had not existed in any previous versions. Would it be accepted by the literalists as true?
It could happen.
Would the brand new chapter in the Bible become retroactively literally true?
It very well could.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned it yet but there's a precedent for this:
Once upon a time, there was a brilliant half-breed Jew who supervised a death squad sworn to destroy the Christian Sect. When killing them outright proved to be too slow, death-squad man changed his name and his cover story, and on profession of belief went on to define the Christian Faith and dominate the New Testament canon with his then modern, rational, and somewhat Hellenistic spin on Judaism!
You know who I mean don't you?
What reason, if any, do Church fathers give for including this man's writings in the canon?
Was it his conversion story? - "I saw the light."
Was it his attitude? - "I'm sorry. Really I am."
Was it his Judaism? - "The law doesn't really mean what it says."
Was it his clean record? - "I'm writing this from prison you know."
I don't know what it was but I'm pretty sure it wasn't his resume'.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Nuggin, posted 06-23-2006 10:21 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 10-21-2006 9:43 PM doctrbill has replied
 Message 101 by truthlover, posted 10-22-2006 1:09 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2786 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 98 of 106 (358041)
10-21-2006 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Nighttrain
10-21-2006 9:43 PM


Re: Holy Scripture! - Bat Boy
Nighttrain writes:
Funny how what we have of James and the Ebionites points to avoiding YOUKNOWWHO like the plague.
Don't believe I'd ever heard of these guys. Ran a search and scanned a few articles and - I find it interesting, more like amazing how: solely by virtue of having read the Pauline letters and compared them to the recorded teachings of Jesus, that I have arrived independently at conclusions which I now hear repeated by others; namely:
this.
Thanks for the tip.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Nighttrain, posted 10-21-2006 9:43 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by truthlover, posted 10-22-2006 12:54 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2786 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 100 of 106 (358057)
10-22-2006 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by truthlover
10-22-2006 12:54 AM


Re: Holy Scripture! - Bat Boy
truthlover writes:
... to take an almost non-existent Ebionite history and talk about "inescapable conclusions" is utter nonsense.
Thank you for your response.
I'm sure you're right about that. The subject is new to me. I simply found it surprising that my impressions had been shared by others, even in Paul's time.
As to my question: Do you happen to know any early arguments for including Paul's writings in the NT?

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by truthlover, posted 10-22-2006 12:54 AM truthlover has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2786 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 102 of 106 (358144)
10-22-2006 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by truthlover
10-22-2006 1:09 AM


Re: Holy Scripture! - Bat Boy
truthlover writes:
Paul's message still has power,
Indeed.
IMHO, being not yet a know-it-all, I imagine that Paul has destroyed the Christian movement, as it was originally envisioned, and simultaneously given it re-birth via the mechanism of his marvelous spiritualistic spin on Judaic legalism while accomodating the desire, of many Jewish persons, to live in harmony with the world at large.
Kudos to him, I say.
But that was then.
And this is now.
Time to evolve again.
Yes?

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by truthlover, posted 10-22-2006 1:09 AM truthlover has not replied

  
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