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Author Topic:   The Problems with Genesis: A Christian Evolutionist's View
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 153 of 200 (692501)
03-04-2013 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Eli
03-04-2013 12:01 AM


Re: Not a Time-Line
I have a different feeling. I think Genesis is a good way for the Creator to communicate to many cultures that human beginnings are rooted in the supernatural.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Eli, posted 03-04-2013 12:01 AM Eli has seen this message but not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 160 of 200 (692616)
03-05-2013 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
03-05-2013 11:29 AM


Re: truth...
quote:
You can not know Truth.
Ringo, is this a true statement that we can know ?
Or is this a statement the truth of which we cannot know because we cannot know Truth ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 03-05-2013 11:29 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 11:02 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 162 of 200 (692669)
03-06-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
03-06-2013 11:02 AM


Re: truth...
I make a distinction between truth and Truth, which I usually call "Truth" to draw attention to the distinction. Little-t truth can be varified by observation. It is true that the sun rises in the east (or appears to).
If big-t Truth is an "ideal" that cannot be observed directly, then it can not be little-t truth.
Okay.
Was "Truth cannot be known" itself a big T Truth or a little t truth ?
Wouldn't you have to be able to observe big T Truth in order to observe that no one can KNOW big T Truth ?
How did you observe that big T Truth cannot be known unless you know big T Truth and noticed by observation that no one could apprehend big T Truth?
But if you yourself don't know or recognize big T truth, then I think you have to be agnostic about it. It is POSSIBLE that someone knew big T Truth and you didn't realize that this was what was being known.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:03 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 164 of 200 (692673)
03-06-2013 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
03-06-2013 12:03 PM


Re: truth...
If somebody claims to know big-t Truth, he has to be able to demonstrate how he observed it. Without repeatability, his claim is unreliable.
And this concept you have written is a little t truth or a big T Truth ?
I am also not sure if you are saying that discribing how one observed big T Truth and repeatability have to go together.
I guess you are saying that one observes big T truth necessarily has to be able to advize the next person how to repeat that experience.
This is of course assuming that the second person is interested in having that experience. Upon being advized, for reasons of his own, he may decide to go the other way and not repeat what was claimed to be experienced.
I think you are saying there has to be ability to advize on one side.
Perhaps, then there has to be willingness to follow on the other party's part.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:32 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 166 of 200 (692677)
03-06-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ringo
03-06-2013 12:32 PM


Re: truth...
That's a copout. You're claiming that anybody who doesn't confirm your claims has an ulterior motive. That in itself is just another unconfirmed claim.
Well, I think you are jumping the gun.
It is possible that I might not want to know something of the true for reasons of my own.
Is that not possible? Make me the culprit here.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Maybe you have seen truth. Maybe I don't want it for whatever personal reason. My stubborness to repeat your seeing, I simply am not interested in.
I think you have to admit that this is possible of either one of us.
I don't think I am asking you to believe, for example, that non-theists have an exclusive copyright on the ability to be stubburnly uninterested in truth.
Your suspicion is understood. However, the matter cuts both ways.
You don't have to be able to demonstarte your claims to everybody but it also isn't enough to demonstrate your claims to somebody. You have to be able to demonstrate your claims to a group of more-or-less randomly-chosen people and they have to come to a consensus. Think of it like jury selection.
What I hear you saying is that the knowing of big T Truth has to be able to be methodologically repeatable to at least SOME people.
But if that is true then I think you have to revize the axiom that Truth cannot be known. I think you would have to admit that Truth can be known by something like a jury - a subset of all the people.
Am I right ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:52 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 2050 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 168 of 200 (692686)
03-06-2013 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by ringo
03-06-2013 12:52 PM


Re: truth...
Does either statement represent your belief:
Big T Truth does not exist ?
Or big T Truth exists but no one can know big T Truth ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by kofh2u, posted 03-06-2013 5:36 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 03-07-2013 11:20 AM jaywill has not replied

  
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