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Author Topic:   The Problems with Genesis: A Christian Evolutionist's View
willietdog
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 200 (447038)
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


Hi, I'm a Christian Evolutionist, which to me means that I beleive in a non literal interpretation of Genesis. I have been studying this for quite awhile and am about to start writing a blog on the subject. I thought I would throw some of my ideas out there about how I find the genesis stories of creation to be entirely inaccurate. I would appreciate it if you would try to answer some of the problems I have found with the stories. this will really help me when starting my blog in what I should write about.

Please note first my view on evolution. I find the theory of evolution to have some problems but over all a well tested and sound theory and the most likely out their at the present time. As for how I deal with it as a Christian I find that it seems a little odd but not impossible it happened entirely naturally and believe that in order for what we have today to have formed it had to have help. the process is sound but I don't believe it was random. I do not believe in a young earth I have a hard time believing its as young as it is. but on to the topic just don't accuse me of being bias, I am fully both and my religious beliefs have never effected my science.

Problems with Genesis:
1.Genesis says God created the Earth in 6 days. YEC's beleive that the earth is 6,000y/o their are stars in the sky further than 6,000 light years away but we can see them. one gamma ray burst was several billion light years away. but nothing has ever been seen that out dates our current estimated age of the universe and much evidence supports it. on top of that there are many other dating methods that easily out date 6,000 years. nothing can support a 6,000 y/o earth and everything contradicts it. that in and of itself proves that Genesis 1 has some errors in it. if it has one how many others could it have?

Genesis 1:3 ("Let there be Light") and Genesis 1:14-19 (creation of sun moon and stars) are used in the next two points.
2.How can there be light before there is a source?
3.we have all most fool proof evidence that the sun is older than the earth and that it is easily older than 6,000 y/o but this says earth was created first.

Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

Genesis 1:23 "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind."

4.We have clear fossil records that prove that life was created in this order: fish, then land animal, then bird not fish + bird then land animal

5. this is getting to long so im not going to even list all the numerous contradictions between the two stories of creation in genesis.

6. intelligent design says that after the flood the animals on the ark being the last animals on earth went through a rapid "super evolution" where on average by my calculations 1 new species emerged every 20 hours. this is not including extinctions. conservative estimates can say 1 every 1.6 days but I couldn't get any more than 1.2 no matter how hard I tried. now if you all this happen directly after the flood to explain why this rate isn't still happening you get around speeds 10x that giving you around one speciation every 3 hours and 50 min. This is IMPOSSIBLE by any logic or reason and especially not with science. evolution says (by my calculations) that a speciation occurs on average every 316.6 years (much more likely)
here is a youtube video that shows super evolution being taught at the creationist museum in cincinati only afew hours from where I live (sadly I missed my chance of going)

Please note that even I find this a litle bias but I do have to admit from what I heard this place needs help. and I find it sad that we as Christians have ignored the truth that is staring us right in the face and have had to desperately come up with these things and call them "science" They aren't trying to attack our religion their just smart enough to see reason.

Ive got plenty more which I might edit into this later but for now I think I've made my point. again I would love your opinions into this matter. if you have any more contradictions please post them. If I ever find the time to write in my blog ill make sure to post a link here. thanks for reading.

BTW: I know nothing I have said are new ideas. I even got some of them from places like this or the youtube video I posted. but none of them are without hours of time spent pondering them and researching them. I'm no noob. I do have to admit though I am not a scientist (yet) but I don't think you need a degree to do what I have done and research the facts and present them.

Edited by willietdog, : spelling

Edited by willietdog, : No reason given.


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willietdog
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 200 (447049)
01-07-2008 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


After reading some of the other threads that were rejected i have decided to present my view on how I believe you can believe that the bible is the word of god and still see these impossible errors. The answer to me is quite simple It has to do with who it was being written to. The Hebrews of the time of Moses were as primitive as it comes in the way of science and knowledge, certain things were unfathomable to them that were crucial in the explanation of the beginning of the universe. one of these was time. no one back then could imagine anything near as long as this suggests. so what is God to do to explain this? he changes 4.5 billion years into 6 days. obviously a day is much easier to comprehend, a dog can comprehend a day. this also allowed him to set up the idea of the sabbath on the 7th day. so that solves the problem of an old earth contradicting the bible but the story also seems to be in the wrong order when viewed from a scientific standpoint. as i mentioned light should be after stars, birds after animals, and several others i didn't get into. but when you look at it from an historical standpoint it is written in a way in which they could easily relate to. they likely believed that light was the essence of everything or something to that extent i don't know but it seems like if i were trying to relate to them that would be what i put first because light is the most fundamental mentioned. because of helocentrism they must have believed that the earth being the center of everything was created first, even before the sun, moon, and stars. birds must have been put before animals because the sea and the sky were created before land to them or something to that extent. and man was molded out of the clay separate from all creation and special because we were made in gods image. I have to admit i don't know much about this aspect of this because I haven't researched it these are all my own ideas but the point i was trying to make is the genesis story was not made to convey how god created the universe but more of how and why and was written in a way all could understand.

Edit: I also realize what i said here could be used as a way to show that the bible is not the word of god. this is not my intention but rather an unfortunate possibility which i do not believe. none the less we can neither prove nor disprove the supernatural because science by definition is a way of learning about the natural world.

Edited by willietdog, : No reason given.


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willietdog
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 200 (447054)
01-07-2008 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


I was again reading another topic here in the forums and the admins asked him to post what math he used so that others may check it. I think this is a very good idea and will do the same.

quote:
intelligent design says that after the flood the animals on the ark being the last animals on earth went through a rapid "super evolution" where on average by my calculations 1 new species emerged every 20 hours. this is not including extinctions.

the number of years since the flood (around 4000) divided by the number of species estimated to currently be in existence (around 1.8 million) and i then converted that number into hours (*364*24)

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AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1977
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 4 of 200 (447117)
01-08-2008 4:20 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 200 (447120)
01-08-2008 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminPhat
01-08-2008 4:20 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

:laugh:


Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2459 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 6 of 200 (447121)
01-08-2008 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


"1.Genesis says God created the Earth in 6 days."

Not so. The creation chapter does not infer 24-hour days, but cosmic days, namely these are epochs of time. The sun's luminosity came on the 4th cosmic day, thus 24-hour days are clearly out. In fact, the Genesis calendar, the oldest and most accurate one, begins with the birth of Adam, which is the New Year in the OT calendar, and its calculation of some 5700 years does not include the creation days of chapter one.

quote:
Genesis 1:3 ("Let there be Light") and Genesis 1:14-19 (creation of sun moon and stars) are used in the next two points.
2.How can there be light before there is a source?
3.we have all most fool proof evidence that the sun is older than the earth and that it is easily older than 6,000 y/o but this says earth was created first.

The sun was created in v.1, ['The Heavens'/ galaxies], as was everything in creation, but each factor was actualised later, in its due time. Thus, the light which genesis mentions is not star light, but its essential pre-sun light [essence of what light constitues]; the stars could not produce light unless this was a pre-existing entity. Stars do not give light in their embryotic phase, but only till they develop to a critical stage. Thus the star of the earth's solar system was already created in V.1., and is thus older than the earth, but it became 'luminous' at a point when the earth experienced rains.

quote:
4.We have clear fossil records that prove that life was created in this order: fish, then land animal, then bird not fish + bird then land animal

Not so: dinosaurs are bird derived, and not from animals. Genesis marks the first chronological listing of life forms, from where Darwin got his ToE. This listing is correct, namely fish, fowl, animals, humans. This list is more comprehensive than any other, and includes the vital pre-separation of the elements, required for life, namely the separation of water/land; day/night; etc., with representations for mammals, insects [creepy crawlies], bacteria and virus [swarms]. the genesis description must cater to all genrations of mankind in its understanding; thus even quarks are represented ['dust']. The species are also better represented than in ToE, which cast humans along with animals, by focusing only on the skeletal and biological imprints - thereby totally ignoring the most powerful factor of speech. Genesis correctly seperates the species ['kinds'] by allocating speech endowed humans varied from all other life firms. This is vindicated: despite the premise of ToE's adaptation and speciation, no other life form has evolved to acquire speech for 4.5 B years - speech being the single most powerful factor for any life form, and this despite that animals and birds are older, and possess a far more dexterious array of sound pitch criteria.

Evolution is a process, not a causative factor, and begins only 'after' a life form is already pre-existing it. The variance of the genesis and Darwin modes of evolution is the 'seed' factor, which is totally disregarded from ToE, while this is the only factor which can evidence ToE. Namely, ToE must subsist without the seed factor to prove its viability. This problem is not suffered by genesis, which posits that all transmissions, including DNA and biological impressions, are able to be represented by the seed factor alone. The seed represents an outgrowth of a male and female duality.

The flood is a regional, not a global event, and refers only to the then known world. The animals listed are also domestic animals, with the preamble in this story being limited to 'Noah's household'[Genesis] - namely his possessions, animals and family. This we find no mention of tigers, snakes, elephants, etc in the ark contents listing. Grammer was introduced in the OT, which rules require the most coherent path be applied - namely it would be grammatically incorrect to include Tasmania and the Amazons in Noah's space-time, same as it would be unfeasable to include Jupiter in today's known world, despite it being possible that Jupiter may be conquered and accoutned 500 years from now. Noah is 5,500 years ago - before the Pyramids, Egypt and Babylon were yet evolved. A careful study of the exacting words in the texts will expose the correct and coherent position here.


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2459 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 7 of 200 (447122)
01-08-2008 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by willietdog
01-07-2008 9:05 PM


quote:
The Hebrews of the time of Moses were as primitive as it comes in the way of science and knowledge, certain things were unfathomable to them that were crucial in the explanation of the beginning of the universe. one of these was time.

'Primitive' is qualifiable. The hebrews were subjected to the most advanced laws of that time, many being controversial and novel upto today, 1000s of years before the rest of humanity could even digest these. These had to be inculcated over a 40 year period, including the first introduction of one day per seven of rest from work, animal and women's rights, intricate judiciary rights, cencus counts in the millions, democracy, Liberty, inalienable human rights, creationism, monotheism, etc. To boot, all this was in what is the world's first alphabetical 'books', which had to be understood.

With regards 'time', they had to be able to account for sunsets and sunrises, exacting dates of annual festival observances based on harvest, and the first lunar-solar calendar. Thus, primitive must be factored accordingly.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5654
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 8 of 200 (447135)
01-08-2008 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


Welcome
Welcome to our debate forum, willietdog.

2.How can there be light before there is a source?

Genesis 1 presents a primitive pre-scientific account of the world. It describes the sky as a rigid ceiling (firmament). It describes this sky as being luminous during the day but not at night. This luminosity is created with "let there be light", and is independent of the sun. That is, the light in the sky is its own source.

As you point out, the sun, moon, stars were created later. They are described as some sort of lighting fixtures installed in the ceiling.

The account indicates that there is water above the ceiling, presumably the source of rain.

This is, of course, complete nonsense to us, given our scientific knowledge. However, it is a quite natural and simple description for the primitive people for whom this account of creation was intended.

Creationists are in total denial of this. Though they claim to be literalists, they insist on nonliteral readings of this text so that they can delude themselves that it is not hopelessly wrong.


Let's end the political smears

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jar
Member
Posts: 33184
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 9 of 200 (447145)
01-08-2008 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by IamJoseph
01-08-2008 5:33 AM


Need clarification.
In fact, the Genesis calendar, the oldest and most accurate one, begins with the birth of Adam, which is the New Year in the OT calendar, and its calculation of some 5700 years does not include the creation days of chapter one.

Please provide the Chapter and verse in Genesis that supports your assertion.

Not so: dinosaurs are bird derived, and not from animals.

Please provide a cite to the study that shows that dinosaurs are not animals.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2718 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 10 of 200 (447154)
01-08-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


welcome, brother. it is unfortunate that you come so openly. the next thing that will happen to you is that any of a certain 5 people will proclaim that you're actually an atheist spy controlled by satan and not a christian at all. sorry. that's how it goes here.

welcome to the fray.


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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 11 of 200 (447361)
01-09-2008 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by willietdog
01-07-2008 8:39 PM


Re-Genesis
Hi willietdog,

Welcome to EvC

I am the beating post around here. Get beat up all the time so join the crowd and have at it as long as I have time.

Hi, I'm a Christian Evolutionist,

I get it that you believe in some kind of deity that had a hand in the processes of everything coming into being. I hope this is correct.

We have several on here that claim to be Christian Evolutionist. But I would like to know what you consider it takes to be Christian.
This might be getting a little off topic so if you perfer you can answer this in a e-mail my address is under my profile.

1.Genesis says God created the Earth in 6 days.

First off you assert that Genesis says God created the Earth in 6 days. I have read that book so many times I forget how many but I have never read where it says God created the earth in 6 days, I would appreciate it if you could point me to that verse but I warn you I only use the KJV.

2.How can there be light before there is a source?

Who says there was no source?

3.we have all most fool proof evidence that the sun is older than the earth and that it is easily older than 6,000 y/o but this says earth was created first.

You say we have all most fool proof evidence. I would like to see proof concerning when the sun was created and the earth as far as that matters.

Man has no Evidence of how the universe was started nor from what.
He has a wild dream that something called a singularity that appeared in a point in space before space was from the absence of anything and this singularity that was just a point began to expand, (some call it the big bang) according to Dawkins everything was timed to 1/200 billion'ths of a second or we would not be here, We have had that expansion every since the beginning. Now remember everything in this expanding universe the billions of stars galaxies, everything out there that you can see and cannot see came from a point.

Ask where that point came from and the best answer I have got so far is "We don't Know". Most on this site just says that is cosmology and has nothing to do with evolution.

4.We have clear fossil records that prove that life was created in this order: fish, then land animal, then bird not fish + bird then land animal

We have a clear theory to this fact.

But all that is wrong Man was first.

Let me clarify my position.
I am not YEC.
I could care less what Intelegent Design says.
I do not claim to be a Christian. To me that means Christ-like.
I do claim to be a child of the King.

5. this is getting to long so im not going to even list all the numerous contradictions between the two stories of creation in genesis.

I have no problem with the 2 creation stries in Genesis.
I believe there was a creation in Genesis 1:1.
I believe there was a remodling job done starting in Genesis 1:2 that goes through Genesis 2:3.

BTW there are no contradictions in the 2 stories.

Have fun and enjoy,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2459 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 12 of 200 (447370)
01-09-2008 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
01-08-2008 9:31 AM


Re: Need clarification.
quote:
In fact, the Genesis calendar, the oldest and most accurate one, begins with the birth of Adam, which is the New Year in the OT calendar, and its calculation of some 5700 years does not include the creation days of chapter one.
====================
Please provide the Chapter and verse in Genesis that supports your
assertion.

I'm certain we did this before?

quote:
The Hebrew Calendar: Origins and History.

7 Day Week:

The Jewish people were the first people to organize their life around the weekly cycle. They justified the seven day week on the basis of the verse from the Book of Genesis, where it is stated that G-d created the world in six days and on the seventh day He rested.

Here is a chart outlining the Hebrew name for the days of the week, its Gregorian calendar equivalent, and the meaning of each Hebrew name for the days of the week. As mentioned, the Hebrew names for the first six days of the week remind us that the spiritual goal of the week is the day of unity and wholeness - Shabbat or the Sabbath. Each day of the week reminds us that we are preparing for the "peace" - the "shalom" in Hebrew - meaning unity and wholeness - of Shabbat or the Sabbath:

Hebrew Name For The Days Of The Week / Gregorian Name For The Days Of The Week / Meaning of Hebrew Day Name:

Yom Rishon B'Shabbat Sunday the first weekday of the approaching Shabbat
Yom Sheini B'Shabbat Monday the second weekday of the approaching Shabbat
Yom Sh'lishi B'Shabbat Tuesday the third weekday of the approaching Shabbat
Yom Revi'i B'Shabbat Wednesday the fourth weekday of the approaching Shabbat
Yom Chamishi B'Shabbat Thursday the fifth weekday of the approaching Shabbat
Yom Shishi B'Shabbat Friday the sixth weekday of the approaching Shabbat
Shabbat Saturday Sabbath

***
Why is the Jewish Calendar a Lunisolar Calendar? (Lunisolar = follows the cycle of the moon I.E. lunar, and sun I.E. solar)
The Hebrews needed an understanding of astronomy in order to fix the dates of the festivals. The biblical commandment in the Hebrew Bible to "Keep the month of Aviv" or "Keep the month of Abib" (Deuteronomy 16:1) made it necessary to know the position of the sun. In addition, the biblical commandment to "Also observe the moon and sanctify it" (Exodus 12:1-2), also made it necessary to know the phases of the moon, hence the need for a lunisolar calendar.

When Does A Jewish Day Begin And End in the Jewish Calendar?
The Jewish day in the Jewish calendar begins at sundown and ends at nightfall on the following day. By extension, the Jewish Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday and ends with the appearance of three stars of the second magnitude on Saturday evening, which is estimated to occur when the sun is seven degrees below the horizon. The Hebrew Bible states: "And it was evening and it was morning", in that order (Examples are: Genesis 1:5, 1:8, and 1:13).

New Year; 1st Day of 1st Month.

The 1st day of Nissan or Nisan is also the date for the first month of the Hebrew/Jewish calendar, in other words, months in the Hebrew/Jewish calendar are numbered beginning with the month of Nissan or Nisan as explicitly stated in the Book of Exodus (Exodus 12:1-2) where it says about the month of Nissan or Nisan: "(G-d) said to Moshe and Aharon in the Land of Egypt, 'This month shall be for you the beginning of the months; it shall be for you the first of the months of the year”. In fact, the title "First of the Months" ("Rosh Hodashim" in Hebrew) is reserved in the Torah for the month of Nissan (Exodus 12:2).

Here is a table comparing the Hebrew/Jewish civil calendar and civil month number with the Hebrew/Jewish religious calendar and religious month number, respectively:

Civil Calendar Month Number Religious Calendar Month Number
Tishri 1 Nisan or Nissan
(Aviv = "Spring" in Hebrew) 1
Heshvan or Cheshvan 2 Iyar 2
Kislev 3 Sivan 3
Tevet 4 Tammuz 4
Shevat 5 Av 5
Adar 6 Elul 6
Nisan or Nissan (Aviv) 7 Tishrei 7
Iyar 8 Heshvan or Cheshvan 8
Sivan 9 Kislev 9
Tammuz 10 Tevet 10
Av 11 Shevat 11
Elul 12 Adar 12

Origin of 12 Months in the Year; The Annual Earth Revolution Period; Hours/Minutes/Seconds; The Zodiac.
The names of the Babylonian months come from the Akkadian language, a Semitic language which originated in the city of Akkad, in northern Babylonia. Akkadian was spoken in Babylonia before the 10th century B.C.E. By the late 10th century - early 9th century B.C.E., Aramaic replaced both Akkadian and Hebrew as the spoken language in Babylonia. By about 600 B.C.E., Babylonian astronomers had identified the ecliptic, meaning the sun's apparent course around the earth, and they divided this course into 12 parts (meaning they divided this course up into 12 months), each named for a constellation in which the sun rose during that period. The sun determined the length of the year by its passage through the 12 parts, with the moon passing through all of them in 29 1/2 days. Our horoscope is a direct descendant of the Babylonian system of calculation since the day, which was a 24-hour period, was broken up into 12 segments, the 12 segments into periods of 30-degree segments each, and those, in turn, broken down into 60 minutes and finally further divided into 60 seconds. The Babylonian year began at the first New Moon (actually the first visible crescent) after the Vernal Equinox. Later on, the Greeks adopted this method of dividing up the heavens and time, calling this set of 12 calendrical constellations, the zodiac ("zodion" means "animal figure" in Greek). The beginning of the Babylonian month in the Babylonian calendar was determined by the direct observation by priests of the young crescent moon low on the western horizon at sunset after the astronomical New Moon. This custom is remembered in Judaism and Islam with the principle that the new calendar day begins at sunset.

Pre Babylonian Hebrew Calendar
In Pre-Exilic times (meaning prior to 587 B.C.E. or 586 B.C.E., before the Babylonians conquered the Kingdom of Judah), the names of four months are mentioned: Aviv or Abib (first), Ziv (second), Eisanim or Ethanim (seventh), and Bul (eighth). However, these four names are actually derived from the Canaanites and at least two of these names are Phoenician names. All four references to these month names are mentioned in the account of Solomon's relation with the Phoenicians and their assistance with the construction of the First Temple (1 Kings 6:1, 6:37, 6:38; 8:2).

Hebrew Calendar References in the Torah:

• The Jewish calendar has 12 lunar months (from crescent to crescent) of 29 or 30 days each (1 Kings 4:7).
• The Jewish civil year begins with the 7th religious year month, which is Eisanim or Ethanim/Tishrei or Tishri, and is in either September or October in the Gregorian calendar (Exodus 23:16, Exodus 34:22).
• Agricultural year - autumn (early rains), winter (rains), spring (latter rains), summer (long, hot, dry).
• Sabbatical years (every 7th year).
• No sowing or reaping (Leviticus 25:2, 25:7, 25:20, 25:22).
• Cancel debts (Deuteronomy 15:1).
• Fellow Hebrew servants released (Deuteronomy 15:12).
• Jubilee years (after 7 weeks of years, 50th year) (Leviticus 25:8-12).
• Land returns to original owners (Leviticus 25:13-17, 25:23, 25:24).
• Biblical days go from sundown to sundown (Genesis 1:5, 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, 1:31; Leviticus 23:27, 23:32; Numbers 19:16, 19:19).
• 1 hour = 1/12 the period from sunrise to sunset.
• Example hours: 1st = 6-7 P.M., 3rd = 8-9 P.M., 6th = 11 P.M. - Midnight, 9th = 2-3 A.M., 12th = 5-6 A.M.
• Note that Roman hours started from midnight, rather than from sundown.
• The night was divided into 3 watches of 4 hours each.
• 7 day weeks with the 7th day (Saturday) being the weekly Shabbat or Sabbath.
• Note that there is no physical cycle of 7 days, it came from G-d in Eden (Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 20:8-11) and is based on mathematical calculations.
• All dates are based on the Jewish religious calendar (where 1/1 is first day of Aviv/Nisan or Nissan)
• There were 7 special annual ceremonial events I.E. sacred assemblies, feasts (Leviticus 23:1-44)
• Omer Offering: 1/16, the day after the 1/15 ceremonial Sabbath (Leviticus 23:10-14 compare Leviticus 23:6 and Leviticus 23:14)
• A sheaf of the first fruits of the barley harvest is waved before the L-rd.
• Shavuot (Feast of Harvest, Feast of Weeks): 3/6, 7 weeks (50 days inclusive) starting from the Day of the Omer Offering or the Day of Wave Sheaf (2nd evening of Passover/Pesach) (Exodus 23:15-21, Exodus 34:22, Leviticus 23:15,16, Numbers 28:26-31, Deuteronomy 16:9-11)
• The ceremonial Sabbaths were distinguished from the weekly Sabbaths of the Ten Commandments (Leviticus 23:1-4, 23:37, 23:38).
• Where in the Hebrew Bible is the date of Passover mentioned? Answer: Exodus 12:1-14, 34:25, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 28:16, and Deuteronomy 16:1-8, 16:12.
• Where in the Hebrew Bible does it mention the length of the Passover festival? Answer: Exodus 23:15, Exodus 34:18, Leviticus 23:6-8, Numbers 28:17-25, and Deuteronomy 16:3, 16:4, 16:8.
• Festival of the Passover (I.E. lamb) Offering: 1/14 (Exodus 12:1-14, Exodus 34:25, Leviticus 23:5, Numbers 28:16, Deuteronomy 16:1-8,12)
• Rosh Ha-Shanah: 7/1 (Leviticus 23:23-25, Numbers 29:1-6).
• Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement): 7/10 (Leviticus 16, Leviticus 23:27-32, Numbers 29:7-11).
• Cleansing of the sanctuary and the genuine people of G-d (Leviticus 16:17,30,33).
• Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of Ingathering)
• 7/15 - 7/21 (seven days) (Exodus 23:16, Exodus 34:22, Leviticus 23:33-43, Numbers 29:12-38, Deuteronomy 16:13-15).
• Simchat Torah: Rejoicing, joy complete (Leviticus 23:40, Deuteronomy 16:14,15).
• Shemini Atzeret: The closing assembly of the annual festival cycle (Leviticus 23:36,37)

Additional Notes:

While in captivity in Babylonia, the Jews began a strict observance of Shabbat, or the Sabbath, which is the period of rest on the seventh day. Since the exiled Jews in Babylonia were unable to pray in their Temple in Jerusalem, it having been destroyed by the Babylonians when they conquered the Kingdom of Judah in 587 B.C.E. or 586 B.C.E., and deporting most of the Jews to Babylonia, the Jews created in time what they lost in space: giving the seventh day of the week (Saturday) to G-d in the form of Shabbat, or the Sabbath. In fact, Shabbat is so holy to the Jewish people that in the Jewish calendar, the days are designated by their position in relation to Shabbat I.E. the sixth day before Shabbat, the fifth day before Shabbat, and so on. Exodus 20:8-11 reflects how the week is deeply embedded in Biblical tradition. The "day of rest", the seventh day, is in fact part of the 10 Commandments: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the L-rd thy G-d; in it thou shalt not do any work...For in six days the L-rd made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day: wherefore the L-rd blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it" (Exodus 20:8-11).


quote:
Please provide a cite to the study that shows that dinosaurs are not animals.

Today's birds were Jurasic dinousaurs, is my understanding. Animals did not come before birds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 01-08-2008 9:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by DrJones*, posted 01-09-2008 2:07 AM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 19 by jar, posted 01-09-2008 8:28 AM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 56 by gluadys, posted 09-30-2008 1:55 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2162
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 13 of 200 (447372)
01-09-2008 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by IamJoseph
01-09-2008 1:58 AM


Re: Need clarification.
Animals did not come before birds.

Birds are animals.


soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by IamJoseph, posted 01-09-2008 1:58 AM IamJoseph has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by IamJoseph, posted 01-09-2008 2:27 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2459 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 14 of 200 (447375)
01-09-2008 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by nwr
01-08-2008 8:39 AM


Re: Welcome
quote:
Genesis 1 presents a primitive pre-scientific account of the world.

Chellenge: care to post any other document with 5% of the scientific stats listed previously? Which other document stated the universe is finite - before genesis, or how long after?

quote:

It describes the sky as a rigid ceiling (firmament). It describes this sky as being luminous during the day but not at night. This luminosity is created with "let there be light", and is independent of the sun. That is, the light in the sky is its own source.


Really? Care to evidence your claim? As I said before, grammar was inroduced in the OT, and there is no science w/o correct comprehension. My comprehension of this text says the firmament refers to the bottom of earth, not the sky, and relates to the separation of land from water, a vital pre-action for life. Please consider:

quote:
'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'

This too is wrong:

quote:
It describes this sky as being luminous during the day but not at night. This luminosity is created with "let there be light", and is independent of the sun. That is, the light in the sky is its own source

Yes, the point made by genesis is, the sun produces light, because light pre-exists the sun - else the sun could not produce light. Analogy: water; tap. Does the water pre-exist the tap?

quote:
As you point out, the sun, moon, stars were created later. They are described as some sort of lighting fixtures installed in the ceiling.

No, I never said that. Only the luminocity appeared later. The lighting fixtures you speak of, came from the greeks, a 1000 years later, which produced the flat earth scenario via christianity. In fact, when one examines the OT calendar, there is no other concluding other than that the earth is a spherical, moving body. There is no hint or remote inference of a flat earth in the OT!

quote:
However, it is a quite natural and simple description for the primitive people for whom this account of creation was intended.

Creationists are in total denial of this. Though they claim to be literalists, they insist on nonliteral readings of this text so that they can delude themselves that it is not hopelessly wrong.


Yes, I've seen those greek drawings. You are displaying a poor history knowledge here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nwr, posted 01-08-2008 8:39 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 57 by gluadys, posted 09-30-2008 2:13 PM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2459 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 15 of 200 (447376)
01-09-2008 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by DrJones*
01-09-2008 2:07 AM


Re: Need clarification.
No contest - with qualification.

But the species that fly ['fowl'/Genesis] came after fish, chronologically. Then came mammals.

ToE lists humans as animals too, while genesis lists humans as a seperate species, and shows that skeletal and biological factors do not rule here: Adatation never produced speech, despite animals and birds being older life forms, and speech being the most powerful adaptation tool. Obviously, Adaptation is not limited to the time factor in this instant, and became possessed by the most recent, last life form: an anomoly. Yes/No?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by DrJones*, posted 01-09-2008 2:07 AM DrJones* has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by gluadys, posted 09-30-2008 1:50 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded

  
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