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Author Topic:   The Problems with Genesis: A Christian Evolutionist's View
jaywill
Member (Idle past 732 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 166 of 200 (692677)
03-06-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by ringo
03-06-2013 12:32 PM


Re: truth...
That's a copout. You're claiming that anybody who doesn't confirm your claims has an ulterior motive. That in itself is just another unconfirmed claim.

Well, I think you are jumping the gun.

It is possible that I might not want to know something of the true for reasons of my own.

Is that not possible? Make me the culprit here.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Maybe you have seen truth. Maybe I don't want it for whatever personal reason. My stubborness to repeat your seeing, I simply am not interested in.

I think you have to admit that this is possible of either one of us.
I don't think I am asking you to believe, for example, that non-theists have an exclusive copyright on the ability to be stubburnly uninterested in truth.

Your suspicion is understood. However, the matter cuts both ways.


You don't have to be able to demonstarte your claims to everybody but it also isn't enough to demonstrate your claims to somebody. You have to be able to demonstrate your claims to a group of more-or-less randomly-chosen people and they have to come to a consensus. Think of it like jury selection.

What I hear you saying is that the knowing of big T Truth has to be able to be methodologically repeatable to at least SOME people.

But if that is true then I think you have to revize the axiom that Truth cannot be known. I think you would have to admit that Truth can be known by something like a jury - a subset of all the people.

Am I right ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:52 PM jaywill has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18877
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 167 of 200 (692678)
03-06-2013 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by jaywill
03-06-2013 12:44 PM


Re: truth...
jaywill writes:

I think you would have to admit that Truth can be known by something like a jury - a subset of all the people.


No. A jury can only come as close as possible to objective truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by jaywill, posted 03-06-2013 12:44 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by jaywill, posted 03-06-2013 2:02 PM ringo has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 732 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 168 of 200 (692686)
03-06-2013 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by ringo
03-06-2013 12:52 PM


Re: truth...
Does either statement represent your belief:

Big T Truth does not exist ?

Or big T Truth exists but no one can know big T Truth ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 03-06-2013 12:52 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by kofh2u, posted 03-06-2013 5:36 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 03-07-2013 11:20 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 169 of 200 (692715)
03-06-2013 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by jaywill
03-06-2013 2:02 PM


... truth... the image of Reality

Does either statement represent your belief:
Big T Truth does not exist ?

Or big T Truth exists but no one can know big T Truth ?

First, one must answer whether he accepts the axiom, that Reality exists, is the same for everyone, whether they recognize that entity or not.

There can only be Truth if a singular ever unfoling Reality exists which sires what is True in its wake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jaywill, posted 03-06-2013 2:02 PM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 03-07-2013 11:26 AM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 170 of 200 (692716)
03-06-2013 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
03-04-2013 2:15 PM


Re: ..."the Kingdom of God is within"...

Its apparent that they got a lot of stuff wrong. Why are you assuming that they got everything right?

I don't think they got anything wrong.

I believe that the way they phrased things, and their clever choice of words with a duality in their synonyms, allowed them to express what we would realize on the one hand, was scientifically and academically correct.
While on the other hand, this allowed for the misconceptions of ancient peoples, throughout all the generations previous to our own to assume what they thought was what the Bible writers meant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-04-2013 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18877
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 171 of 200 (692762)
03-07-2013 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by jaywill
03-06-2013 2:02 PM


Re: truth...
jaywill writes:

Does either statement represent your belief:
Big T Truth does not exist ?

Or big T Truth exists but no one can know big T Truth ?


No. Neither represents my position. I would say that if big-t Truth exists, we have no way of knowing what it is. Human perception deals only with small-t truth and small-t truths don't add up to big-t Truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jaywill, posted 03-06-2013 2:02 PM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 2:07 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18877
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 172 of 200 (692765)
03-07-2013 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by kofh2u
03-06-2013 5:36 PM


Re: ... truth... the image of Reality
kofh2u writes:

First, one must answer whether he accepts the axiom, that Reality exists, is the same for everyone, whether they recognize that entity or not.


Again, we have to distinguish between big-r Reality and small-r reality.

Everybody has his own small-r reality. Small-r reality is different in the Sahara desert from what it is in New York City. Small-r reality is different for a blind person and a sighted person.

If big-r Reality exists, we have no way of perceiving it. It isn't "real" in the same sense as small-r reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by kofh2u, posted 03-06-2013 5:36 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 2:30 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 200 (692788)
03-07-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by ringo
03-07-2013 11:20 AM


Re: truth...
I don't think they got anything wrong.

But you desperately want that to be true. This isn't some conclusion that's be arrived at. Its an assumption you make a priori.

I believe that the way they phrased things, and their clever choice of words with a duality in their synonyms, allowed them to express what we would realize on the one hand, was scientifically and academically correct.

You mean, you can interpret the words to be so vague that practically any explanation can fit within them. You just happen to choose ones that you think are scientifically and academically correct.

While on the other hand, this allowed for the misconceptions of ancient peoples, throughout all the generations previous to our own to assume what they thought was what the Bible writers meant.

So we've got all these Jews, who according to your ideas, were tricked by god into believing that the Bible says a bunch of stuff that it doesn't really mean. This complete ruse by your god has cost them their place in eternity just so that god's message can be kept secret until you come along and figure it all out. I don't see how you can respect that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by ringo, posted 03-07-2013 11:20 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 2:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 174 of 200 (692793)
03-07-2013 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2013 2:07 PM


Re: truth...
I don't think they got anything wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 2:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 2:30 PM kofh2u has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 175 of 200 (692794)
03-07-2013 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
03-07-2013 11:26 AM


Re: ... truth... the image of Reality

Again, we have to distinguish between big-r Reality and small-r reality.
Everybody has his own small-r reality. Small-r reality is different in the Sahara desert from what it is in New York City. Small-r reality is different for a blind person and a sighted person.

If big-r Reality exists, we have no way of perceiving it. It isn't "real" in the same sense as small-r reality.

It does not matter, nor does Reality depend in anyway, upon whether you or mankind perceives it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 03-07-2013 11:26 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 03-08-2013 11:36 AM kofh2u has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 200 (692795)
03-07-2013 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by kofh2u
03-07-2013 2:28 PM


Re: truth...
You worship a prankster god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 2:28 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 5:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 177 of 200 (692817)
03-07-2013 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2013 2:30 PM


Re: truth...

You worship a prankster god.

"I am the Truty, the way, and the life"... everlasting for any species which can apt to Reality.

How is that a prank??


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 2:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:31 PM kofh2u has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 200 (692821)
03-07-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by kofh2u
03-07-2013 5:17 PM


Re: truth...
That your god has performed some pranks doesn't necessitate that everything they've said is a prank.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 5:17 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 5:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 2610 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 179 of 200 (692825)
03-07-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2013 5:31 PM


Re: truth...

That your god has performed some pranks doesn't necessitate that everything they've said is a prank.

What pranks???

You call god a name and then refer to that as a charge against him.

What I read from he things you post is that you respond to things that church peple say about what they think the Bibketells us about this God.
Then you take what theysay, as you did here with what you say, and condemn god.

What is it in the Bible that makes you say these things?
They call the Bible the Word of God, so it is only fair that you take him at that word and tell us what is your complaint against him?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:31 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-08-2013 12:19 PM kofh2u has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18877
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 180 of 200 (692887)
03-08-2013 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by kofh2u
03-07-2013 2:30 PM


Re: ... truth... the image of Reality
kofh2u writes:

It does not matter, nor does Reality depend in anyway, upon whether you or mankind perceives it.


So you definitely are saying that there is an Absolute Reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by kofh2u, posted 03-07-2013 2:30 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by kofh2u, posted 03-08-2013 1:22 PM ringo has responded

  
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