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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 190 (402475)
05-27-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 8:52 AM


The Whole Story
One way to understand what the Bible is saying is to read it as it was written. Whole stories, not verses.
Ezekiel 9:5-7
If you go back to Ezekiel 8 you will find that what you are reading in Ezekiel 9 is a vision, not reality. I don't see that any living innocents were murdered in the viewing of that vision.
Exodus 12:29-30
If you go back to Exodus 7 you will see that the Exodus story is just that, a story. If you want to take the event as actual, then remember that Egypt was the enemy. God is the god of the Israelites, not Egypt. What people expected from God in that timeframe is different than what we expect today. The rules were different back then. Do you feel that God does the same thing today?
Jeremiah 51:20-26
This is a prophecy against Babylon. From what I understand, it didn't come about as depicted. So no "evil" actually took place.
Good and evil are in the eyes of the beholder.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 8:52 AM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 11:50 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 11 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 12:56 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 190 (402491)
05-27-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
05-27-2007 11:50 AM


Re: The Whole Story
quote:
When you find something you like, it's true. When you find something you don't like, well, it's just a story, you see. And if it's not a story, well, it was written for that time only.
If you disagree with my assessment of what was written, then make your case in relation to the topic.
If you feel that the rules of that day and age are no different than today, then make your case in relation to the topic.
Otherwise you have done nothing to further this discussion, since you've provided no evidence that my conclusions are based on whether I like or dislike what the Bible says.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 11:50 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 7:44 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 190 (402505)
05-27-2007 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 12:56 PM


Re: The Whole Story
quote:
What you say may well be true, that they "stories" are intended to be allegorical, not taken literally.
One was a vision, one was a story, and one was a prophecy.
If you want to show that God is evil, at least show something that he actually did that is evil.
quote:
Still this is not the kind of thing that I want to be teaching my children.
Then learn what the Bible is saying and teach your children the lesson. If it is not a valid lesson for today, then you don't teach it to your children. Writings fit the culture. You're judging something that is over 2500 years old by today's standards.
Ancient Jews believed that when bad things happened (disease, famine, getting conquered, etc.) that God was displeased with them.
Is lightening evil?
Are tornadoes or hurricanes evil?
Is disease evil?
If two countries go to war, who is evil? The one who wins, the one who loses, or the one with the worst justification?
You can't teach your children good lessons from Aesop's Fables either if you don't understand the moral of the story.
Even in stories and movies today, there is a good guy and a bad guy. Conflict makes the story interesting. Even our cartoons blast the bad guy. In the Exodus story, Egypt is the bad guy.
Just like the movie Independence Day. The aliens were planning to colonize the planet. This was all out war. It is likely that on the "mother ship" there were civilians or innocent aliens. We destroyed them all. Are we then evil or just surviving?
When contractors destroy ground to build parking lots, homes, etc.; animal homes are destroyed. Are we evil?
As I said, God in the OT is the god of the Israelites not the Egyptians. God promised to deliver them from Egypt. In their book, God is the good guy.
Why expect their stories to be more delicate than ours?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 12:56 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 4:40 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 18 of 190 (402517)
05-27-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 4:40 PM


God of the Bible
quote:
The problem is that your view is not the prevalent view, particularly in the USA where significant numbers of the population (particularly evangelicals )take it literally.
But the topic is about the God of the Bible, not the God of the prevalent view. In the OP you stated:
There is a closely held belief by all Christians that the God of the Bible is Good. ...So, here we go and, again, the issue is, are the actions and commands of God as given in the scriptures acts of Goodness, or as I contend, Evil?
The vision is symbolic and I don't see that the prophecy came about. So you haven't shown actual evil actions yet.
In the Exodus God is defending his people as promised. So from their viewpoint God's actions are good.
Are these the only verses that lead you to believe that God is evil?
quote:
What can be done to offset this message to let the next generation know that God (if he exists) plays no favorites?
Whether God plays favorites or not is another topic.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 4:40 PM Jon Paine has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 23 of 190 (402535)
05-27-2007 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taz
05-27-2007 7:44 PM


Back to the Beginning
The Israelites supposedly had favor in Egypt due to Joseph. The new king didn't know Joseph and didn't like the number of Israelites in his city. So they oppressed them with forced labor.
The king of Egypt asked the Hebrew midwives to kill all the boys when they were born. The midwives didn't. The king then commanded all his own people to kill every boy born to the Hebrews, but girls could live. That's why Moses was hidden in the river.
In the OT, God tends to repay mistreatment in like kind.
quote:
In other words, you don't see killing the children of your enemies, which have absolutely nothing to do with the situation, evil?
It isn't about what I think today. It is about how things were viewed at the time this supposedly took place.
quote:
But I'm curious as to how you can call the Exodus "just a story".
What makes me think it is a story? Well for one thing the Egyptian livestock were killed off by a plague in Chapter 9.
For if you refuse to let them go and still hold them the hand of the Lord will strike with a deadly pestilence your livesstock in the field; the horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks. ...And on the next day the Lord did so; all the livestock of the Egyptians died...
But God didn't touch the livestock of Israel.
When the firstborn are killed it includes the firstborn of the livestock. There shouldn't be any livestock left. The hail also supposedly killed livestock in the field. This took place after the pestilence.
quote:
Without the Exodus, there would be no Jewish nation, hence no christianity.
But that goes back to proving whether the Exodus happened or not and I think Brian has covered all that in many threads.
quote:
Ok, to be fair. Could you give us a few examples in the bible where you think it's not just "stories" and why?
That's not what this topic is about. It's not about me, it is about the God of the Bible.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 7:44 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 10:20 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 26 by ICANT, posted 05-27-2007 11:37 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 33 of 190 (402569)
05-28-2007 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
05-27-2007 10:20 PM


Re: Back to the Beginning
quote:
Ok, before we go on, are we talking about the god of the bible and that this god exists or are we talking about the god of the bible and that this god is fictional?
It is about the portrayal of God in the Bible.
In the OP Jon Paine writes:
...rather it is my assertion that the Biblical portrayal of him is far less than complimentary.
It doesn't matter whether you feel God exists or not or whether God does exist or not. Just because God exists, doesn't mean the story can't be fictional or parts of it fictional.
There are fictional stories depicting real places and real people, but the events didn't take place as told in the story and the real people didn't actual speak the words attributed to them in the story.
Based on the theories of Richard Elliott Friedman in his book "Who Wrote the Bible?" concerning the Documentary Hypothesis, the Exodus story we have in front of us had several authors.
The J (Judah) author didn't get into the plagues. They seemed more concerned with wilderness. Then again the redactor may have cut out their contribution to the events in Egypt.
Exodus 3:19-22
I know, however, that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless compelled by a mighty hand. So I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will perform in it; after that he will let you go. I will bring this people into such favor with the Egyptians that, when you go, you will not go empty-handed; each woman shall ask her neighbor and any woman living in the neighbor's house for jewelry of silver and of gold, and clothing, and you shall put them on yoru sons and on your daughters; and so you shall plunder the Egyptians.
This author speaks of wonders and bringing the people into favor. Hard to do after all the plagues and killing the first born.
The E (Israel) author gave us the plagues except for the boils. The boils supposedly came from the P (Priestly) author.
The sacrifice of the firstborn to God is based on the killing of the Egyptian firstborn. (Written by E)
Exodus 13:15-16
When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from human firstborn to the firstborn of animals. Therefore I sacrifice to the Lord every maile that first opens the womb, but every firstborn of my sons I redeem. It shall serve as a sign on your hand and as an emblem on your forehead that by strength of hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.
So in the context of the story and the age it was written, is God really evil?
In our stories and movies today, it would be bad form to have the hero killing innocent children. Apparently in the age of the these storytellers it wasn't.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 10:20 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 05-28-2007 11:57 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 40 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 3:09 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 35 of 190 (402587)
05-28-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Jon Paine
05-28-2007 1:09 PM


Facts Not Quotemining
As you said in Message 25 the existance of God is not the issue in this thread, neither is whether the Bible is fabricated.
The issue is whether God is evil. Other than the verses in the first post, you haven't done any more to support your position that God is evil.
As shown; one verse concerns a vision, not reality. The Exodus depends on the viewpoint and the prophecy was pretty much trashtalk.
Why does a symbolic vision make you see God as evil?
Why does God saving his chosen people from abuse make you see God as evil?
Why does a prophecy worded to warn and/or scare, but apparently didn't happen, make you see God as evil?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Jon Paine, posted 05-28-2007 1:09 PM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Jon Paine, posted 05-28-2007 10:17 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 44 of 190 (402651)
05-29-2007 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taz
05-28-2007 11:57 PM


Re: Back to the Beginning
And Harry Truman was evil because he ordered bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.
The Hasmoneans were evil because they forced people to convert to Judaism with threat of death or exile.
Do we assume that good people are not capable of bad actions?
What I see is that when people, cultures, or nations clash violence happens.
As I asked before, in a war who is evil? The one who wins or the one who loses. I'm sure both sides can justify their actions.
quote:
To be fair, would you agree that according to our standard in this time and age, the god of the bible is evil?
No. I agree that the actions on both sides were "evil", but like I showed above, that doesn't make the person or god evil. In this day and age, we separate the action from the person or at least we are supposed to.
Can we show that the God of the Bible had no good intentions whatsoever?
Can we show that the God of the Bible enjoyed the suffering of the opposition?
Now if people want to go with the typical knee jerk reaction that anything we don't like or don't understand is evil, then there's nothing I can say or do to counter that viewpoint.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 05-28-2007 11:57 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 10:43 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 12:51 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 190 (402653)
05-29-2007 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon Paine
05-29-2007 2:35 AM


Chill
Since I go to bed at 9pm and your Message 36 was posted on 5/28 at 10:17pm my time and your comment to me in Message 39
And purpledawn, you didn't answer the question, would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance or would you agree that such a command from anybody (even God) to do so is Evil.
was posted at 5/29 at 2:35am my time, I was sleeping. I haven't gotten to the point of answering in my sleep yet.
People have lives away from the keyboard and encompass many time zones, so instant responses are not expected. Give people time to respond.
Also commenting to me in a response to someone else lessens the chances of my seeing the comment.
Since this post does not address the topic, I do not expect a response to this post from you or anyone else.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
Take comments to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon Paine, posted 05-29-2007 2:35 AM Jon Paine has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 47 of 190 (402662)
05-29-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Jon Paine
05-28-2007 10:17 PM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
This is one story that causes problems for many Christians.
quote:
Would you sacrifice your child in Abraham's circumstance?
I can't comprehend being in Abraham's circumstance, so I can't really answer truthfully.
BTW, Abraham didn't sacrifice his child.
Human sacrifice or sacrifice of children was not unknown in ancient times.
2 Kings 23:10
He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech.
The story you quoted is when Abraham (who is the founder of the Hebrew/Jewish religion) finds out that his God is not like the other God's and does not require human sacrifice. The story explains why the Hebrews did not sacrifice humans.
Like the vision and the prophecy, nothing bad actually happened.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Jon Paine, posted 05-28-2007 10:17 PM Jon Paine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 11:10 AM purpledawn has not replied
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 55 of 190 (402688)
05-29-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by berberry
05-29-2007 12:21 PM


Re: Human sacrifice even by God is Evil
quote:
If God exists and he is good, then he can't possibly be the god of the bible. If he exists and he is in fact the god of the bible, then he isn't good.
Why? Make your case.
quote:
You can't have it both ways, unless, I suppose, you wish to posit that this god character isn't all-knowing.
I don't think I've ever claimed that God is all-knowing. If you feel God is evil because he is all-knowing, then show what in the OT leads you to believe that God is all knowing.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by berberry, posted 05-29-2007 12:21 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 1:04 PM purpledawn has not replied
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 76 of 190 (402713)
05-29-2007 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taz
05-29-2007 12:51 PM


God of the Bible
quote:
I don't understand why you are ignoring the fact that we are talking about an all knowing and all powerful god, here.
I'm talking about the God of the Bible, not an all-knowing or all-powerful god.
quote:
Purpledawn, I'm debating with you in good faith. But it seems to me like you're just throwing things out there just to win an argument. You are using examples that aren't really comparable to what we are talking about.
Actually your examples are not comparable to what I've been saying. In Message 23 and Message 33, I'm comparing the Exodus story with other types of storytelling.
In Message 37 you brought in actual events, not stories and I responded with actual events that could be considered evil depending on which side of the event one is on. You responded: Actually, no. Harry Truman wasn't an all knowing, all powerful god that could have just ended the war just like that. Well none of your examples were of all-knowing or all-powerful gods either. So I don't understand the point in mentioning them concerning the Exodus story or my position.
As I said in Message 33: There are fictional stories depicting real places and real people, but the events didn't take place as told in the story and the real people didn't actual speak the words attributed to them in the story.
I also pointed out in Message 33 that looking at the various authors established by the Documentary Hypothesis, the killings didn't seem to take place in the J portion. The J author spoke of wonders and bringing the people into favor. Hard to do after all the plagues and killing the first born.
Do we determine "evil" within our literature the same as we do in reality? I used a movie as an example in Message 16.
Even in stories and movies today, there is a good guy and a bad guy. Conflict makes the story interesting. Even our cartoons blast the bad guy. In the Exodus story, Egypt is the bad guy.
Just like the movie Independence Day. The aliens were planning to colonize the planet. This was all out war. It is likely that on the "mother ship" there were civilians or innocent aliens. We destroyed them all. Are we then evil or just surviving?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 05-29-2007 12:51 PM Taz has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 113 of 190 (402825)
05-30-2007 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Jon Paine
05-30-2007 2:30 AM


National vs Individual
quote:
When a scripture and verse is given as a would be example of the deity's unfairness (evil), let us all consider the malifaction in the context of modern day accepted mores, civil laws, NT ethics and/or the Golden Rule. Only then, let the morality of the issue be considered in light of the "ancient" mores, traditions, and customs.
Now I see the conflict. The verses you shared in the OP are on a national level. Your criteria for judgment is on the individual level.
The NT doesn't deal with warring nations. Jesus was teaching the individual. I don't recall Jesus implying that soldiers should stop being soldiers.
If your beef is with Christian teachings of today and you feel they are using the wrong verses to teach of God's supposed goodness and glossing over the harshness of the past, then address the error of those teachings.
IMO, when it comes to war, everyone would qualify as evil.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 2:30 AM Jon Paine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 8:39 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 125 of 190 (402887)
05-30-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by berberry
05-30-2007 2:50 AM


Who to Blame
quote:
Still, it seems curious that god can be shaped and molded into whatever form is necessary to avoid having him blamed for any of his unjust, unrightous and evil actions.
You can blame God all you want. Hey, it was a theocracy and the head of the theocracy takes the blame. That doesn't make God evil. God does good and bad things just like people.
One job of a ruler is to protect his people/kingdom. They did what they felt they needed to do to survive, and they attribute their decisions to God.
The Amalekites attacked the Israelites without apparent provocation as they were travelling during the Exodus (Ex 17:8). "When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind" (Dt 25:17-18). They later attacked Israel during the time of the Judges (Jdg 3:13) and often raided the Israelites' land after they had planted crops, leaving them with nothing (Jdg 6:2-5). God punished the Amalekites by ordering Saul to destroy them (1 Sam 15:2-3) - over 300 years after they had first attacked Israel. During that time, the Amalekites had contact with the Israelites and would have heard about God. They could have repented and changed their ways, but they continued to raid and plunder other cities up to the time of Saul and David (1 Sam 30:1-3). The Amalekites that Saul and David warred against were clearly no better than their ancestors who had first waylaid Israel.
So what does a leader do when the innocents of his kingdom are in danger?
But if we are to lay blame, shouldn't it be on the actual actions and not what was supposedly said.
1 Samuel 15:24
Then Saul said to Samuel, "I have sinned. I violated the Lord's command and your instructions. I was afraid of the people and so I gave in to them.
Did Saul really kill anyone, or just took the animals and the King?
Later we find the Amalekites still kicking.
1 Samuel 27
8 Now David and his men went up and raided the Geshurites, the Girzites and the Amalekites. 9 Whenever David attacked an area, he did not leave a man or woman alive, but took sheep and cattle, donkeys and camels, and clothes....
Even David who supposedly doesn't leave a man or woman alive doesn't get the job done.
1 Samuel 30
1 ...David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag.... 16 He led David down, and there they were, scattered over the countryside, eating, drinking and reveling because of the great amount of plunder they had taken from the land of the Philistines and from Judah. 17 David fought them from dusk until the evening of the next day, and none of them got away, except four hundred young men who rode off on camels and fled....
Accuracy apparently not their strong suit.
According to a Bible Chronology
Saul 1050-1010 bce
David 1010-970 bce
Hezekiah 715-686 bce (King of Judah)
1 Chronicles 4
41 The men whose names were listed came in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah. ... 43 They killed the remaining Amalekites who had escaped, and they have lived there to this day.
Understanding that their form of battle is par for the course for their time doesn't mean I support killing children or innocents. It means I understand what used to be.
Mankind is good and evil.
So while we can show God giving commands that we would consider evil today, there are also examples of God giving commands that we would consider good today. So it is erroneous to say that the God depicted in the Bible is evil without adding that he is also good.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by berberry, posted 05-30-2007 2:50 AM berberry has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 132 of 190 (402979)
05-31-2007 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon Paine
05-30-2007 7:38 PM


Horse of a Different Color
quote:
What I am asserting is that the God as depicted cannot be a realistic model by modern standards. Why not help me to make that case, won't you. I think that many will benefit.
Realistic model of what?
In the OP you stated: There is a closely held belief by all Christians that the God of the Bible is Good.
What several have shown so far is that God is good and bad like humans. The Bible writings reflect the culture. Religious writings today would reflect our culture.
Again, you seem to have a problem with Christian teachings. For this thread to move forward you need to make a case.
Pick a specific teaching that presents God as a realistic model of ... and make your case for why the teaching or scripture used is erroneous.
You're not giving us anything to debate.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 7:38 PM Jon Paine has not replied

  
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