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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4974 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 136 of 190 (403030)
05-31-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by purpledawn
05-31-2007 2:14 PM


Re: The Bible's God is not Good at Passover
You stated in Message 129 that: What I am asserting is that the God as depicted cannot be a realistic model by modern standards.

I still need to know realistic model of what?

Perhaps depiction is a better word than model. The God as depicted in the Bible cannot be a realistic depiction of a "good God", by any civilized, modern standard.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2356 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 137 of 190 (403033)
05-31-2007 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Jon Paine
05-31-2007 2:31 PM


Teachings
Do Christians use the Exodus story to show that God is good?


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2356 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 138 of 190 (403039)
05-31-2007 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Jon Paine
05-31-2007 2:31 PM


Civilized and Modern
quote:
The God as depicted in the Bible cannot be a realistic depiction of a "good God", by any civilized, modern standard.
Have you seen the good guys and bad guys in the movies and books?

It's Good to be Bad

That's why you need to be more specific as to what verses are being used to present God as good.

We can see if they are misrepresenting what the verses mean.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 139 of 190 (403150)
06-01-2007 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Jon Paine
05-30-2007 7:38 PM


Re: God as depicted:
What I am asserting is that the God as depicted cannot be a realistic model by modern standards. Why not help me to make that case, won't you. I think that many will benefit.

Jon, the problem is that people have a misconception about God.
They picture God as this old man that is their personal sugar daddy, who is so good that He will not dare punish anybody for disobeying Him.

As a pastor I hear the comment's often:
"If God is such a loving God how can He put anybody in the lake of fire for eternity?"
"How can God allow bad things to happen?"
"Why does God allow so many people to die of starvation?"
"Why does God allow so many people to be sick or injured?"

The answer is simple, God made the rules.
You break the rules you pay.
He will even visit your sins down to the fourth and fifth generation.

God is:

Deut 32:4 (KJ) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This declares God:
To be perfect in His work.
That all His ways are judgment.
That God is true.
That God is without sin.
That God is just and right.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Jon Paine, posted 05-30-2007 7:38 PM Jon Paine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by iceage, posted 06-01-2007 2:24 AM ICANT has responded
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 140 of 190 (403151)
06-01-2007 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 8:52 AM


Re-Innoncent
I contend that it is Evil to kill innocents; but the Bible says:

Ezekel 9:1-11

First of all there is no innocent. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

Second, Israel had turned the place of worship of God into worship of the sun among other abominations.

Third, every person that sigh or cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst (of Jerusalem) thereof was spared.

Please do not respond with Bible quotes to the effect that God is good;

There are none. Jesus said three times that there was none good but God other than that there is no mention of God being good.

I John 4:16 says God is Love.

John 3:16 says God so loved the world.....

But don't ever get the idea that because God loves us he will not chasten those who do not do what He says.

A born again child of God cannot sin and not be punished.

A person who has not been born again will spend eternity in the lake of fire with Satan.

Revelation 9:15 says that four angels will destroy 1/3 of mankind, at a future date.

Romans 12:9 says, vengeance is mine, I will repay, thus saith the Lord.

There are a total of 31 verses that talk about God's vengeance in the Bible.

Therefore if God being a just God and requiring that sin be paid for by imposing His sentence is deemed evil by some, does this make God evil?

Is the judge that passes sentence on the person found guilty of murder by a jury evil? Is the system evil for carrying out that sentence. Or is the law against murder evil?

God made the laws.
God is judge, jury, and executioner. Does that make God evil?

The God as depicted in the Bible cannot be a realistic depiction of a "good God", by any civilized, modern standard.

Civilized modern standard: WORLD FACTS

107 People die every minute.
1 person dies every 40 seconds from suicide.
1 person dies every minute by murder.
1 person dies every 100 seconds in armed conflict.

87 fetus's are murdered every minute and they are not even included in the 107 who die every minute. Because some say they don't exist, therefore they don't count.

So what civilized, modern standard are you talking about?


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4814 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 141 of 190 (403156)
06-01-2007 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
06-01-2007 12:14 AM


You belittle God
ICANT writes:

Jon, the problem is that people have a misconception about God.

Yes some have that view, but your view of God is even further misguided.

ICANT writes:

The answer is simple, God made the rules.
You break the rules you pay.

He will even visit your sins down to the fourth and fifth generation.

God is just, right, perfect and without sin, because God made the rules? :rolleyes:

I anticipated this response way back in Message 3

The god describe in the OT reflects the prevailing culture and times. Read any other literary works from the era and you will find similar mores, standards, ideas and misunderstandings of the nature of the world.

There really is nothing inspirational or anything that transcends the culture or times. The image of God is naive and unsophisticated. The god described is essentially an alpha-male warrior god.

Isaiah 42:13 writes:

The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, He shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: He shall cry, yea roar; He shall prevail against His enemies

Exodus 15:3 writes:

The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name.

This a smallish view of God. God will "prevail against His enemies"? Yes,and so did Zeus.

Further god is described frequently in human terms and with anthropomorphic language. God is attributed to have bodily parts, human-like actions, and human emotions: he rejoices, loves, hates, is jealous, grows angry, and wine even gladdens his heart!

Clearly the god described in the Bible is human-inspired and human-centered. The tell tale sign that this warped view of god is human-centered, is that each time science expands our paradigm of the universe and reduces the role of the earth and man, the religious minded fight with tooth and nail to keep to the view that man is exalted within the context of creation and the apple of god's eye.

I simply find it amazing that someone can really believe in this bronze-age vision of god and make statements like you made in your last post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 06-01-2007 12:14 AM ICANT has responded

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ICANT
Member (Idle past 70 days)
Posts: 6396
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 142 of 190 (403180)
06-01-2007 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by iceage
06-01-2007 2:24 AM


Re: You belittle God
iceage writes:

Clearly the god described in the Bible is human-inspired and human-centered.

God is described in the Bible by humans that cannot understand His thoughts or His ways.

quote:
Isai 55:9 (KJV) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

iceage writes:

The god described is essentially an alpha-male warrior god.

This is your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion and are free to believe anything you desire to believe.

I was just trying to answer the op as to whether "The God of the Bible is Evil". I have an opinion and so does everyone else. But because I believe it does not make it true. Same goes for everyone's opinion.


quote:
Deut 32:4 (KJ) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This declares God:
To be perfect in His work.
That all His ways are judgment.
That God is true.
That God is without sin.
That God is just and right.

How do I belittle God by making these statements I quoted from Deut 32:4?


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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jar
Member
Posts: 33343
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 143 of 190 (403195)
06-01-2007 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
06-01-2007 12:14 AM


Re: God as depicted:
This declares God:
To be perfect in His work.
That all His ways are judgment.
That God is true.
That God is without sin.
That God is just and right.

Saying something is so does not make it so.

The Bible also says that God creates evil. Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your answer, "God made the rules" also goes on to make your God truly evil.

If you want, we can play quotemine the Bible all day, but the God you worship does not stand up to reason anymore than the God created by Jon Paine.

You both trivialize God and turn God into some burlesque show comedy rendition of "Har cum de judge." The Gods you guys create are good for a laugh, and as slapstick comedy they have a certain appeal, but once the house lights come up we get to see the layers of face paint and that the set is but cardboard and whitewash.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4974 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 144 of 190 (403241)
06-01-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
06-01-2007 12:14 AM


Re: God as depicted:
Jon, the problem is that people have a misconception about God.
They picture God as this old man that is their personal sugar daddy, who is so good that He will not dare punish anybody for disobeying Him.

I agree that from the Bible it is easy to infer misconceptions about God (if he exists). . The many verses that you have quoted that you feel demonstrate that God is just and therefore justified in reeking vengeance are really I believe off topic.

As a pastor I hear the comment's often:
"If God is such a loving God how can He put anybody in the lake of fire for eternity?"

I am glad that you brought this up because, for most of us and certainly IMO this is the most powerful evidence of an evil God. It is a massive overkill.

"How can God allow bad things to happen?"
"Why does God allow so many people to die of starvation?"
"Why does God allow so many people to be sick or injured?"

I agree that these complaints do not show that God is evil. These are just Nature's way of equalizing the playing field. Life is not fair. These unhappy situations are not from the Bible, however, which is what this thread is about.

Edited by Jon Paine, : change a line


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2356 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 145 of 190 (403301)
06-01-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jon Paine
06-01-2007 1:47 PM


Through the Ages
quote:
I agree that from the Bible it is easy to infer misconceptions about God (if he exists). The many verses that you have quoted that you feel demonstrate that God is just and therefore justified in reeking vengeance are really I believe off topic.
Since a debate has two sides, the opposite of your position is that God is good or God is not evil.

What ICANT shared in general in Message 140 is a very good point.

ICANT writes:

Therefore if God being a just God and requiring that sin be paid for by imposing His sentence is deemed evil by some, does this make God evil?

Is the judge that passes sentence on the person found guilty of murder by a jury evil? Is the system evil for carrying out that sentence. Or is the law against murder evil?

God made the laws.
God is judge, jury, and executioner. Does that make God evil?

The God of the OT is presented as the ruler of the Hebrews. He has all the power of a ruler. Laws, judgment, war, peace, etc. Same for the NT. God dealt with rule breakers the same way the human rulers did.

Now if we grew up in a country where rulers can kill or have people (any age) killed and where criminals are thrown into a firey pit after death; then it is not out of the norm for their God to do the same thing. That's how justice works in that country or time.

Since the Christian Holy Book stops at the NT, the religion got stuck IMO. Now Christians are trying to present God in the same light as we expect our (USA) leaders to act today. Unfortunately since they feel the Bible is the last word, they are stuck by trying to prove their point with outdated material.

It's the same thing you are doing. You also are trying to make your point with outdated material. That's why I said it is better to attack the teaching rather than the scripture.

I'm not the same as I was in my 20's (on many levels). I'm not even the same as I was when I first joined this forum. The view of God changes as mankind changes.

As I said before, there is also a difference between what God does on a national level and what God does on an individual level.

The OT is on a national level. The NT is on an individual level.

I haven't done research, but I don't think they were worried about prisoner rights in the age of the NT.
God's form of punishment for the individual in the NT will be in line with the punishment of the time.

Understanding is better than fear, IMO.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2356 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 146 of 190 (403496)
06-03-2007 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jon Paine
06-01-2007 1:47 PM


Three Stages of Development
I reread some of Friedman's comments on the Documentary Hypothesis. (Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman)

I agree that Christianity needs to be careful how they teach. It would be like showing young recruits today, clips from when I went through boot camp. They are interesting, but they won't help them understand what to expect when they get to the base. Much has changed.

Bible scholars found three distinct periods reflected in the writings and three stages of development in the religion of Israel.

The J&E authors reflected the nature/fertility stage, the D (Deuteronomy) author reflected the spiritual/ethical stage, and the P (Priestly) author reflected the priestly/legal stage.

The Exodus story comes from the J&E authors with later Priestly portions inserted.

In Deuteronomy 20, we see laws of war that reflect a "softer" side. I mean it is war after all.

10-15
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. ... If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, and the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. ...

Deuteronomy 20:16-18 gets into why they should completely destroy anything living when battling the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. I haven't had time to research, but I think it would be interesting to note whether these groups were essentially gone by the time Deuteronomy was written or not. Easy to say kill everything when they are already gone.

Just some more to think about.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4814 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 147 of 190 (403497)
06-03-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by purpledawn
06-03-2007 12:13 PM


Re: Three Stages of Development
PD writes:

In Deuteronomy 20, we see laws of war that reflect a "softer" side. I mean it is war after all.

Softer side? There were not offering peace in terms we think of, but enslavement. The omitted text in the verse you quoted is important.

The critical insight is that the passage is not offering peace as an outreach of empathy or concern for the foreigners, but the cold practical logic that if they are useful enslave them, but if they are threat kill them.

Compare this and other "hard" commands of the "lord" in the OT and compare to, for example, Alexander the Great. Alexander's speech at Opis, would be considered nothing but extremely liberal in its day (maybe even inspired).

Purpledawn writes:

Easy to say kill everything when they are already gone.

The historicity of the events are not as important as the message.

What is important, is the issue that people actually believe that the bronze-age trash talk is somehow the work of god, the creator of the universe large and small.

The issue is that these are stories where men feel empowered by some deity and justified to commit atrocities. We see this message still empowering and infecting the minds today. People don't ask the obvious question; as to why would the creator of galaxies need to have his "children" do his dirty work.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 2356 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 148 of 190 (403514)
06-03-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by iceage
06-03-2007 12:50 PM


Re: Three Stages of Development
quote:
There were not offering peace in terms we think of, but enslavement. The omitted text in the verse you quoted is important.
Important to what? I'm not comparing now with then. I'm showing a progression forward. Improvement. Enslavement is a step up from killing everybody.

quote:
Compare this and other "hard" commands of the "lord" in the OT and compare to, for example, Alexander the Great.
If you are going to compare, then compare like kind.

The God of the OT is not a person. Alexander the Great is.

Either compare writings of the same time period that show what other gods commanded or compare leaders from the same time period and what they actually did.

I showed in Message 125 that even within the Bible writings, what was said and what was done aren't always the same.

quote:
The issue is that these are stories where men feel empowered by some deity and justified to commit atrocities.
Exactly and like any other story, they need to be understood correctly in the context of their intended audience and what actually happened.

In Message 145 I wrote: The God of the OT is presented as the ruler of the Hebrews. He has all the power of a ruler. Laws, judgment, war, peace, etc. Same for the NT. God dealt with rule breakers the same way the human rulers did.

Now if we grew up in a country where rulers can kill or have people (any age) killed and where criminals are thrown into a firey pit after death; then it is not out of the norm for their God to do the same thing. That's how justice works in that country or time.

Since the Christian Holy Book stops at the NT, the religion got stuck IMO. Now Christians are trying to present God in the same light as we expect our (USA) leaders to act today. Unfortunately since they feel the Bible is the last word, they are stuck by trying to prove their point with outdated material.

The NT also presented a father image for the individual, granted a harsher father than what we would expect today, but those were harsher times. Again, the image changes with time.

Isn't understanding better than superficially condemning?


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by iceage, posted 06-03-2007 12:50 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
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miosim
Member (Idle past 4577 days)
Posts: 57
From: NH, USA
Joined: 04-07-2007


Message 149 of 190 (403547)
06-03-2007 10:15 PM


Hijacking of morality by religion
The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be hijacking of morality by religion.”
Arthur C Clarke

The main thesis of the old testaments is that the relationship between Cod and Human is as follow: Human fears and loves mighty God, but God has no obligation to his creation. In this God-centric universe desire to please God is a human main goal. It overrules all other considerations, like relationship with family, friend or with the rest of people.
The collection of God commands and wishes (interpreted or misinterpreted) - form the RELIGIONS VALUES.

In contrast, over the time, the human-centric views were developed. In these views the human relationship with other humans is the primary goal and everything else is secondary. The collections of human-centric values form the HUMAN MORAL VALUES.

In some cases the religion and moral values are overlapped but often are contradict to each others. The difference could be illustrated by the following examples.

1. Gen: Ch6 People are very wicked
“So the Lord said, ‘I will kill men, whom I have created. I will remove them from the earth. I will kill men and animals and birds. I will kill that entire crawl on the ground. I am sorry that I made them.”

In the Bible commentary to this peace is said that “God is a judge. He removes things that are evil. But he loves everything that he has made. Especially, he loves people. He is very sad when he has to kill people”. - This is a LIE: God was sad not because he has to kill people, but because he made them. But it is OK to lie, as long you try to please God.

2. Gen: Ch22 God tests Abraham
God wanted to test Abraham's loyalty and order Abraham to kill his son. Abraham would follow these commands if angel would not stop him.

According to Religion Value you should have no second thought in following God’s command, even God will demand to kill your son or daughter or any innocent people.
According to Human Moral Value only criminal can test loyalty this way.

3. Due: CH 20:16, 17 Special rules for war
“You will take cities in the country that God is giving you. Then you must kill everything that is alive, people and animals. You must kill completely all the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perrizites, Hivites and Jebusites. The Lord your God has told you to do this.”

I see in this example the similarity with the previous one where God test Abraham loyalty. The main difference is that in this case an Angel didn’t stop the hand of the Israelis and mass murder was committed. However this is well within Religion Values.
According to Human Moral Value there was not known war criminal that comes even close to what was described in this chapter.

4. Jos: CH:2 Rahab helps two men of Israel
This prostitute saved her life and life of her family by betraying people of her nation.
She was rewarded for that, but all men and women, young and old people of her country were killed.

So, According to Religion Value doesn’t matter how low you failed as a human, doesn’t matter that you lied and betrayed your people that lead to their mass murder, as long you please mighty God.
Human Moral disgusts this behavior.

5. The book of Job

God want to proof to Satan that there is none like Job in the earth a perfect and an upright man. And of sake of argument, he destroyed Job’s life and killed his children and God with Satan had observed a result of this experiment.

Job was subjected by God to severe suffering, just to demonstrate to the Satan the loyalty of the true believers. Job pass the test, the church teaches us, and for that God fully reworded Job’s suffering by giving him more wealth and more kids that before. God didn’t return to Job his children, but according to Bible, wealth and good relationship with a God meant more than human lives. Job’s story is one of the fundamental of the Religion Value.
According to Human Moral, this type of experiment allowed only on microbes.

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.

Edited by miosim, : No reason given.


  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4814 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 150 of 190 (403562)
06-04-2007 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by purpledawn
06-03-2007 5:12 PM


Re: Three Stages of Development
PD writes:

I'm showing a progression forward. Improvement. Enslavement is a step up from killing everybody.

No it was not improvement at all! The enslavement was not in any way out of the concern or empathy for people outside the in-group. It was the cruel logic. If their enemies capitulate and are useful, enslave them, but if they are threat kill them.

I mentioned Alexander to show that improvement and progression was accompanying the growth and maturation of mankind, external of the dark vision of god in the OT.

PD writes:

The God of the OT is not a person. Alexander the Great is.

The god of the OT was very much viewed as a person, although a stern patriarch, a warrior, a megalomaniac ruler.

PD writes:

The God of the OT is presented as the ruler of the Hebrews. He has all the power of a ruler. Laws, judgment, war, peace, etc. Same for the NT. God dealt with rule breakers the same way the human rulers did.

To this I am complete agreement with you. The god of the OT is a mirage created by a people living in harsh times, not any more. They transferred the standards of their rules and warriors to what they envisioned as the next level of hierarchy. The god of the OT does not reflect the being that created the universe anymore than Zeus or the god the Aztecs.

PD writes:

Since the Christian Holy Book stops at the NT, the religion got stuck IMO. Now Christians are trying to present God in the same light as we expect our (USA) leaders to act today. Unfortunately since they feel the Bible is the last word, they are stuck by trying to prove their point with outdated material.

Agreed. Hence the great error with attributing the Bible to God.

PD writes:

Isn't understanding better than superficially condemning?

Agreed again. My whole thesis is that the bible marks the progression of human thought concerning the divine. In that respect, the bible has value in understanding the mind of humans not the mind of God. However, as soon as someone starts to believing that the stories and myths are of divine origin or are inspired the error begins.


This message is a reply to:
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