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Author Topic:   The God of the Bible is Evil
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1845 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 190 (402505)
05-27-2007 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 12:56 PM


Re: The Whole Story
quote:
What you say may well be true, that they "stories" are intended to be allegorical, not taken literally.
One was a vision, one was a story, and one was a prophecy.

If you want to show that God is evil, at least show something that he actually did that is evil.

quote:
Still this is not the kind of thing that I want to be teaching my children.
Then learn what the Bible is saying and teach your children the lesson. If it is not a valid lesson for today, then you don't teach it to your children. Writings fit the culture. You're judging something that is over 2500 years old by today's standards.

Ancient Jews believed that when bad things happened (disease, famine, getting conquered, etc.) that God was displeased with them.

Is lightening evil?
Are tornadoes or hurricanes evil?
Is disease evil?
If two countries go to war, who is evil? The one who wins, the one who loses, or the one with the worst justification?

You can't teach your children good lessons from Aesop's Fables either if you don't understand the moral of the story.

Even in stories and movies today, there is a good guy and a bad guy. Conflict makes the story interesting. Even our cartoons blast the bad guy. In the Exodus story, Egypt is the bad guy.

Just like the movie Independence Day. The aliens were planning to colonize the planet. This was all out war. It is likely that on the "mother ship" there were civilians or innocent aliens. We destroyed them all. Are we then evil or just surviving?

When contractors destroy ground to build parking lots, homes, etc.; animal homes are destroyed. Are we evil?

As I said, God in the OT is the god of the Israelites not the Egyptians. God promised to deliver them from Egypt. In their book, God is the good guy.

Why expect their stories to be more delicate than ours?


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 12:56 PM Jon Paine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 4:40 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Jon Paine
Member (Idle past 4462 days)
Posts: 65
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 05-24-2007


Message 17 of 190 (402511)
05-27-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by purpledawn
05-27-2007 2:43 PM


Re: The Whole Story
I have no problem with the OT stories being taught as literature and fables. The problem is that your view is not the prevalent view, particularly in the USA where significant numbers of the population (particularly evangelicals )take it literally.

You can't teach your children good lessons from Aesop's Fables either if you don't understand the moral of the story....

Agreed.


...As I said, God in the OT is the god of the Israelites not the Egyptians.

Yes, that is the gist of the OT. We get into problems, ie; strife in the middle east, when a third of the world population believes it. What can be done to offset this message to let the next generation know that God (if he exists) plays no favorites?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote boxes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2007 2:43 PM purpledawn has responded

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1845 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 18 of 190 (402517)
05-27-2007 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 4:40 PM


God of the Bible
quote:
The problem is that your view is not the prevalent view, particularly in the USA where significant numbers of the population (particularly evangelicals )take it literally.
But the topic is about the God of the Bible, not the God of the prevalent view. In the OP you stated:

There is a closely held belief by all Christians that the God of the Bible is Good. ...So, here we go and, again, the issue is, are the actions and commands of God as given in the scriptures acts of Goodness, or as I contend, Evil?

The vision is symbolic and I don't see that the prophecy came about. So you haven't shown actual evil actions yet.

In the Exodus God is defending his people as promised. So from their viewpoint God's actions are good.

Are these the only verses that lead you to believe that God is evil?

quote:
What can be done to offset this message to let the next generation know that God (if he exists) plays no favorites?
Whether God plays favorites or not is another topic.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13576
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 190 (402520)
05-27-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jon Paine
05-27-2007 4:40 PM


Re: The Whole Story
Jon Paine writes:

Yes, that is the gist of the OT. We get into problems, ie; strife in the middle east, when a third of the world population believes it. What can be done to offset this message to let the next generation know that God (if he exists) plays no favorites?

  • Should we attempt to limit God (as we understand Him) to what is said about Him in the Bible?

  • Should we tell the next generation who God is or should we allow them to ask questions and find their own idea about Him on their own?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 4:40 PM Jon Paine has responded

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    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1679 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 20 of 190 (402523)
    05-27-2007 7:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
    05-27-2007 12:10 PM


    Re: The Whole Story
    purpledawn writes:

    If you disagree with my assessment of what was written, then make your case in relation to the topic.


    What assessment? All you've done is made a couple of claims here and there. The OP pointed out that god killed all the first borns in Egypt. You came in and claimed that it was only a story. But you also said that if we don't want to see it as a story, then remember that Egypt was the enemy. In other words, you don't see killing the children of your enemies, which have absolutely nothing to do with the situation, evil?

    But I'm curious as to how you can call the Exodus "just a story". Without the Exodus, there would be no Jewish nation, hence no christianity.

    I'm sorry if you think my posts are useless, but I was only responding to your post, which by your criteria is also useless since you gave some of the lamest excuses for what's in the bible.

    Otherwise you have done nothing to further this discussion, since you've provided no evidence that my conclusions are based on whether I like or dislike what the Bible says.

    And this is the problem. You've made a claim without any support whatsoever, and now you are demanding me to disprove your conclusion? Please.

    Added by edit.

    Ok, to be fair. Could you give us a few examples in the bible where you think it's not just "stories" and why?

    Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.



    We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

    Disclaimer:

    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2007 12:10 PM purpledawn has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2007 9:45 PM Taz has responded

      
    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1679 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 21 of 190 (402525)
    05-27-2007 7:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by jar
    05-27-2007 1:18 PM


    Re: God the Pied Piper - good or bad guy?
    jar writes:

    The Bible is a construction of humans, I believe inspired by GOD, but still written by just plain folk, with all the limitations and perspective of their culture and milieu. To read such tales through today's eyes is to misrepresent the authors intent.


    If this is the case, I wonder if the intended message is of any use to us? You said it yourself. The message was written by bronze age people intended for bronze age people. What are stories suppose to teach us beside the savagery of bronze age warfare?



    We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

    Disclaimer:

    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by jar, posted 05-27-2007 1:18 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32034
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 22 of 190 (402533)
    05-27-2007 8:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
    05-27-2007 7:49 PM


    What can be learned?
    Well I covered part of that in Message 15. We can learn what the basis was for the peoples of the period, just as we learn from the stories about the founding of the US or about any other history.

    We can also learn the basic underlying morality tales such as the value of keeping promises or how you should relate to your peers.

    There are many things that can be learned from such stories by some.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 1845 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 23 of 190 (402535)
    05-27-2007 9:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Taz
    05-27-2007 7:44 PM


    Back to the Beginning
    The Israelites supposedly had favor in Egypt due to Joseph. The new king didn't know Joseph and didn't like the number of Israelites in his city. So they oppressed them with forced labor.

    The king of Egypt asked the Hebrew midwives to kill all the boys when they were born. The midwives didn't. The king then commanded all his own people to kill every boy born to the Hebrews, but girls could live. That's why Moses was hidden in the river.

    In the OT, God tends to repay mistreatment in like kind.

    quote:
    In other words, you don't see killing the children of your enemies, which have absolutely nothing to do with the situation, evil?
    It isn't about what I think today. It is about how things were viewed at the time this supposedly took place.

    quote:
    But I'm curious as to how you can call the Exodus "just a story".
    What makes me think it is a story? Well for one thing the Egyptian livestock were killed off by a plague in Chapter 9.

    For if you refuse to let them go and still hold them the hand of the Lord will strike with a deadly pestilence your livesstock in the field; the horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks. ...And on the next day the Lord did so; all the livestock of the Egyptians died...

    But God didn't touch the livestock of Israel.

    When the firstborn are killed it includes the firstborn of the livestock. There shouldn't be any livestock left. The hail also supposedly killed livestock in the field. This took place after the pestilence.

    quote:
    Without the Exodus, there would be no Jewish nation, hence no christianity.
    But that goes back to proving whether the Exodus happened or not and I think Brian has covered all that in many threads.

    quote:
    Ok, to be fair. Could you give us a few examples in the bible where you think it's not just "stories" and why?
    That's not what this topic is about. It's not about me, it is about the God of the Bible.


    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 7:44 PM Taz has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by Taz, posted 05-27-2007 10:20 PM purpledawn has responded
     Message 26 by ICANT, posted 05-27-2007 11:37 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

      
    Taz
    Member (Idle past 1679 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 24 of 190 (402537)
    05-27-2007 10:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by purpledawn
    05-27-2007 9:45 PM


    Re: Back to the Beginning
    First of all, I must point out, if it isn't known yet, that I don't believe any of the stories in the bible. I see them as fables more than history.

    purpledawn writes:

    That's not what this topic is about. It's not about me, it is about the God of the Bible.


    Ok, before we go on, are we talking about the god of the bible and that this god exists or are we talking about the god of the bible and that this god is fictional?

    Added by edit.

    Please note that which ever one you pick I will go with. I will use whatever premise you want to use.

    Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

    Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.



    We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

    Disclaimer:

    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2007 9:45 PM purpledawn has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 33 by purpledawn, posted 05-28-2007 7:48 AM Taz has responded

      
    Jon Paine
    Member (Idle past 4462 days)
    Posts: 65
    From: Los Angeles, California
    Joined: 05-24-2007


    Message 25 of 190 (402547)
    05-27-2007 10:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
    05-27-2007 7:31 PM


    Re: The Whole Story
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Should we attempt to limit God (as we understand Him) to what is said about Him in the Bible?

    Actually, we should admit that our understanding of God is nil and the Bible is a complete fabrication. There is simply no reason to believe that there is a personal God, any more than there is reason to believe in the Roman pantheon. But this thread is not about reasoning about whether there is or is not a God; that belongs in another thread. This thread is about focusing upon what the Bible says God does or commands to be done in his name, good or bad. In the verses cited in post one, he doesn't come across as a nice fellow.


    Should we tell the next generation who God is or should we allow them to ask questions and find their own idea about Him on their own?

    We should teach science as fact, and teach Bible as fiction and allegory.

    Edited by Jon Paine, : No reason given.

    Edited by Jon Paine, : spelling and added phrase


    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
    -Carl Sagan

    This message is a reply to:
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    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6269
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007


    Message 26 of 190 (402555)
    05-27-2007 11:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 23 by purpledawn
    05-27-2007 9:45 PM


    Re: Back to the Beginning
    Hi PD,
    What makes me think it is a story? Well for one thing the Egyptian livestock were killed off by a plague in Chapter 9.

    Was all livestock killed, or was all livestock in the fields killed?

    By the murrian, and by the hail.

    The livestock in the barns and winter shelters was not affected.


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2007 9:45 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6269
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007


    Message 27 of 190 (402557)
    05-27-2007 11:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Jon Paine
    05-27-2007 10:43 PM


    Re: The Whole Story
    the Bible is a complete fabrication.

    That is a very strong statement, care to back it up with facts?


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by Jon Paine, posted 05-27-2007 10:43 PM Jon Paine has responded

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    pelican
    Member (Idle past 3373 days)
    Posts: 781
    From: australia
    Joined: 05-27-2007


    Message 28 of 190 (402558)
    05-27-2007 11:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by jar
    05-27-2007 11:12 AM


    Re: Gotta get some of your story straight right from the beginning.
    if the bible says god creates both good and evil and it is apparent in our experience, then where is the confusion? If there is a god\goodness then the polarity of god must exist, hence devil\evil. Not much difference is there? We cannot have one without the other. It is all or nothing. Both or neither. Choice!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by jar, posted 05-27-2007 11:12 AM jar has responded

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     Message 29 by jar, posted 05-28-2007 12:16 AM pelican has responded
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32034
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 29 of 190 (402560)
    05-28-2007 12:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by pelican
    05-27-2007 11:56 PM


    Who creates Evil?
    If there is a god\goodness then the polarity of god must exist, hence devil\evil.

    But that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that God creates both good and evil. There is no mention of some other individual. Further, in the Bible Satan is not evil but rather just an agent of God who only does the will of God, a tester.

    Of course one great thing about the Bible is that you can find support for anything in it. There is no God of the Bible, rather there are many Gods described in the Bible. The God of Genesis 1 is entirely different than the God of Genesis 2.

    That is only reasonable. The Bible is written by many different people and the different parts served different purposes. Later, the product was put together by many different redactors over a very, very long period of time. The big question that comes up is why, for example, did the redactors include two mutually exclusive descriptions of God in the Genesis stories?

    The answer I believe is that they realized that the two stories picture two differing visions of God. In Genesis 1 we see an overarching, transcendent God. The God of Genesis 1 is supremely competent, creating simply by speaking things into existence.

    But that God is also separate, aloof, distant. There is no interaction with creation.

    The God of Genesis 2 and other Genesis stories is far more human, personable, approachable. She creates by hand and is intimately involved directly with the created. This God walks with creation, is somewhat fumbling and unsure, but shows feelings and consideration.

    What we call evil though is still part of GOD's creation. It is humans that assign such values and that is part of the story of the GOE.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
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    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13576
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 30 of 190 (402562)
    05-28-2007 12:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 28 by pelican
    05-27-2007 11:56 PM


    Mono vs Man-o, or Omni versus Ego
    dameeva writes:

    f the bible says god creates both good and evil and it is apparent in our experience, then where is the confusion?

    If there is a god\goodness then the polarity of god must exist, hence devil\evil.

    Not much difference is there? We cannot have one without the other. It is all or nothing. Both or neither. Choice!

    We all have our opinions and we all have our beliefs---based on our human interpretations of what the scriptures say and mean. Personally, I believe that God created the possibility of evil (perhaps to define what he was not) and also to make rebellion and independence even possible.

  • According to dogma, God never created an actual fallen Satan. He created a freewill Lucifer who had a thought to become like God...thus becoming evil by definition. (Something about the Omnipotence being singular rather than dualistic)! :rolleyes: )

    I don't see God and Satan as yin-yang dualism.

    also here

    this one explains the dichotomy of the material (creation) and the spiritual (Creator)

    Lucifer/Satan was created by God. God was created by nobody( including human minds) He was and is an uncaused first and last (eternal) reality. (IMB, of course)

    Edited by Phat, : I am not omnipotent and tend to make mistakes


  • This message is a reply to:
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