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Author Topic:   Did any author in the New Testament actually know Jesus?
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 187 of 306 (495991)
01-25-2009 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Peg
01-25-2009 5:39 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
He wrote about the christians in his Annals, he also mentions how Pilate had jesus executed. this in itself proves that it was common knowledge and the people of the time accepted that Jesus was a real person.
It's not "common knowledge" that was "accepted" at all.
It's simply a common BELIEF.
We know there were Christian BELIEVERS in early 2nd Century - so what?
Tacitus repeats Christian beliefs, not from any Roman records.
2nd century Christian belief is not evidence.
Peg writes:
Do you really think that he would have wrote about jesus if no one else believed he even existed??
Sure, they BELIEVED Jesus existed - so what?
2nd century Christian belief is not evidence.
Peg writes:
The same goes for all the other historians who make mention of Jesus or the christians.
What other historians?
Josephus was at best tampered with, at worst completely forged.
Pliny mentions Christian beliefs in the 2nd Century.
Sure, there is evidence of Christian BELIEF Peg - so what?
2nd century Christian belief is not evidence.
Peg writes:
Josephus was born in 37CE... thats 4 years after Jesus death. Hence he was alive when the apostles were alive, that makes him a contemporary.
Not a contemporary of Jesus, and there is no evidence he met any apostles.
And why did you bring up his BIRTH date? Was Josephus discussing religion and history from his day of birth? Hmmm? Josephus' writing was from the 90s - long long after the alleged events.
Peg writes:
bible critics[thought Pilate only existed in the bible.]
Peg, you were asked to NAME one person who thought Pilate only existed in the bible. Why can't you name one?
Because no such person exists, it's just a Christian urban legend.
Peg writes:
We were talking about secular writers who wrote about Jesus and the christians and Josephus certainly did that.
Christian believers are not "secular writers".
Josephus is a corrupt passage.
Peg writes:
It shows that Jesus was a historical person, there is no doubt about that.
Actually it shows that in early 2nd century, or perhaps as early as late 1st century, some believers believed in Jesus Christ.
But belief is not evidence.
Tacitus
Roughly 80 years after the alleged events (and 40 years after the war) Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
This evidence speaks AGAINST it being based on any Roman records -
but merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)
So,
this passage is NOT evidence for Jesus,
it's just evidence for 2nd century Christian beliefs about Jesus.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Peg, posted 01-25-2009 5:39 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 188 of 306 (495992)
01-25-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Peg
01-25-2009 6:50 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
So, in an attempt to have the child killed, he sent soldiers into the city of Bethleham and ordered them to kill all baby boys under 2 years of age.
There is no evidence this ever happened, and there WOULD be if it did. Historians agree it never happened.
It's a legend found in ONE Christian Gospel.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Peg, posted 01-25-2009 6:50 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:32 AM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 189 of 306 (495993)
01-25-2009 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Peg
01-25-2009 7:05 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
the eyewitness testimony of the bible writers is evidence.
Not one of the NT books was written by anyone who met any historical Jesus - that's the view of modern scholars.
Peg writes:
The fact that the followers of Jesus were willing to die for their belief is evidence of a strong conviction that they obviously believed it to be true.
So what?
People die for false beliefs all the time - suicide bombers, Heaven's Gate cult, 9/11 bombers etc.
Does that make their beliefs true, Peg ?
And there is no actual evidence for the early martyrs - just later legends supporting earlier legends.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Peg, posted 01-25-2009 7:05 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 190 of 306 (495994)
01-25-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Peg
01-25-2009 8:19 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
These are peters words as penned by Luke. Peter was most certainly an eye witness
Acts is a late and anonymous work - we do not know who wrote it (Christians BELIEVE it was Luke of course.)
And there is no actual historical evidence for Peter (Peter's letters are quite late, and not by 'Peter'.)
So all you have is a late and anonymous work claiming an unknown person was a witness to something.
No evidence at all.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Peg, posted 01-25-2009 8:19 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 214 of 306 (496646)
01-29-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:02 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
the point was, did josephus confirm the existence of Jesus or not?
No.
The passage is corrupt, and not reliable.
Peg writes:
clearly he did. It doesnt matter whether he believed in him or not (obviously he didnt) he didnt believe him, just as the majority of the jews did not believe in him. but it wasnt really the point.
The point is that the T.F. is suspect, and cannot be relied upon.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:02 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 215 of 306 (496651)
01-29-2009 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:17 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
The way we know that he wrote the book is because the earliest church historians are all unanimous about his authorship.
In fact, the earliest references to the Gospels (starting no earlier than early-mid 2nd century) are as UN-NAMED documents. There is no clear quotations of G.Matthew by name until late 2nd century - well over a century after the alleged events.
Peg writes:
There is a line of eyewitness testimony
There are no eye-witnesses.
Peg writes:
to the fact that Mathew was the writer of the gospel
The first reference of any kind to a writing by Matthew (in Hebrew) is Papias (not an eye-witness) in early-mid 2nd century, but it is NOT quite the same as the modern G.Matthew (which was written in Greek.)
Peg writes:
and historians such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen and Tertulian
Historians?
You mean faithful Christians preaching faithful Christian beliefs.
Justin Martyr wrote in the 150s or so - he mentions the "memoirs of the apostles" and says they are "called Gospels", and gives quotes that are not quite the same as modern Gospels. But he does NOT name the authors at all - did you know that Peg? Did you know that Justin does NOT ONCE give any Evangelist's name?
Irenaeus wrote in the 180s or so - he is the VERY FIRST Christian to EVER list the four name of the Evangelists. Did you know that Peg? Did you know the earliest Christian to list the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is from the 180s? A century and a half after the alleged events.
Origen wrote in early 3rd century, nearly 2 CENTURIES after the alleged events.
Peg writes:
all testify to this fact.
Pardon me Peg, but you keep doing that - quoting Christian beliefs as if they were fact. But we're not believers here Peg, you goal is to SHOW your Christian beliefs as true, not just repeat them as if we are members of your choir.
These are not facts at all, they are claims - they are beliefs - by people who had no connection at all with the 1st generation of Christians.
What we DO have is a collection of books of UNKNOWN origin - yes that's right, modern NT scholars agree that we do not know who wrote any of the Gospels, which were originally anonymous, and written long after the alleged events.
Much later, after the wars, some other people started to believe these Gospels were history.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:17 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 217 of 306 (496711)
01-30-2009 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:32 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
you think any ruler would have such an event recorded?
i cant imagine any ruler in their right mind would make a written record of such an event
[the slaughter of the innocent babies by Herod].
Peg -
others write about rulers,
others DID write about THIS ruler,
including criticisms of all the nasty things he did.
There is NO mention of this event in history, and there WOULD be. That is why historians agree it never happened.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:32 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 221 of 306 (496789)
01-30-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:22 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
you do realise that if anything that was writen in the gospels was infactual, the followers of christ...who were eyewitnesses to many of jesus miracles... would be able to refute it
Peg -
modern NT scholars agree - there is NO evidence of any eye-witnesses to Jesus or the Gospels events. Not one single book of the NT was written by anyone who met Jesus - such is the consensus of scholars today. (As far as I can tell Peg, this is completely new information that you have never heard before.)
All we have is late, anonymous, contradictory books of unknown origin which later people came to believe. But there is no actual historical evidence at all for any of the events or people in the Gospels.
Ancient times are FULL of legends and myths that were never debunked because no-one did ANY debunking back then - they believed all sorts of nonsense (such as thinking Paul was a God because he survived snake bite.)
Peg -
Did the followers of Hercules debunk the legends about him?
No.
So according to your argument, Hercules' miracles REALLY happened.
Did the followers of Mohamed debunk the legends about him?
No.
So according to your argument, the miracles REALLY happened - i.e. according to your argument, the moon DID split in two, Mohamed DID fly to Jerusalem on a magical man-animal.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:26 AM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 222 of 306 (496790)
01-30-2009 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Peg
01-29-2009 6:52 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Peg,
Peg writes:
Justin Martyr - a Gentile, born about 110 C.E. in Samaria in the city of Flavia Neapolis, the modern Nablus. He called himself a Samaritan and was a diligent student of philosophy. Unsatisfied in his search among the Stoics, Peripatetics, and Pythagoreans, he pursued the ideas of Plato.
(Peg, you keep giving the BIRTH date, instead of when he WROTE - why? Justin wrote in the 150s - well over a century after the alleged events.)
You cited Justin Martyr as testifying to the authorship of the Gospels - but you seem completely unaware that Justin did not give a SINGLE name of an evangelist ! So do you really still claim that Justin Martyr names the Gospels writers? If so, please quote were Justin does so.
You cited Christian believers who preached their beliefs long after the alleged events - but you seem to think they are "historians" whose claims must all be true. Why?
What about Muslim believers who later wrote their beliefs about Mohamed?
Do you call them "historians"?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 01-29-2009 6:52 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:43 AM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 236 of 306 (496934)
01-31-2009 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:26 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday Peg,
Thanks for your reply...
Peg writes:
some scholars of today also claim that Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a sexual relationship and evidence of this is seen in some of the paintings of Leonardo Da Vinchi LOL
No mainstream scholar claims this nonsense, merely popular writers. You seem to have trouble identifying actual scholars and historians.
Peg writes:
The apostle Peter wrote 1st and 2nd Peter. 1Peter opens with a salutation 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the temporary residents scattered about...' so here is just one book that identifies an apostle of Christ as the writer. Can you somehow disprove this?
Peg -
1 Peter dates to 80-110,
2 Peter dates to 100-160.
Modern scholars agree that neither letter was actually by Peter.
1 Peter
2 Peter
Can YOU produce any EVIDENCE that Peter wrote those letters?
(Not claims and beliefs of other later Christians - but actual historical evidence.)
Kapyong
Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:26 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 237 of 306 (496940)
01-31-2009 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:43 AM


Re: This humble carpenter wasn't exactly what the Jews wanted.
Gday,
Peg writes:
im sorry, i just saw in my quote i had his birth year as 110CE... its not, its 37 C.E. I have this date in a previous post also, but not sure how i managed to type in 110CE here. So you obviously didnt look up the age of Josephus... you would have seen my error if you had.
Oh, that's rich !
I have identified numerous errors in your posts and you have ignored it all (e.g. your erroneous claim that Justin Martyr identified the Gospels writers.) Now you jump on my missing a tiny un-important error, while you continue to ignore the serious errors in your claims about Josephus and other issues.
Peg writes:
I refered to his birth year because this is only a few years after the death of Jesus.
Yup -
you distort the data to bring Josephus as close as possible to the time of the alleged Jesus, as if Josephus could absorb history through his skin from birth. In fact, Josephus' comment about Jesus is from over 50 years later, and is clearly not 100% authentic.
Peg writes:
This meant that Josephus was a young man during the founding years of christianity. He did become a Pharisee at age 19, so his schooling started quite young...by age 26 he was being sent as a diplomat to Rome to seek the release of jewish prisoners. this makes Josephus a contemporary of the early church including the Apostles who were with Jesus.
Only IF you assume they existed.
But you have failed to show they did exist at all.
Josephus wrote a great deal - he NEVER mentions meeting any Christians ever. Can you produce any evidence he did?
The passage in Josephus is either tampered with, or totally forged. Did you know that ?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:43 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 238 of 306 (496945)
01-31-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Peg
01-31-2009 6:46 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
If we are to scrutinize history by the word of scholars, then why must we only accept the word of scholars of our own day and age
Peg -
you keep calling ancient faithful Christian believers "scholars" and "historians" and believing them over modern informed experts.
Peg writes:
and not the word of scholars who were actually living during the times we are analyzing?
Ok then -
how about these :
Celsus attacked the Gospels as fiction based on myths :
"Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"
Porphyry claimed the Gospels were invented :
"... the evangelists were inventors - not historians”
Julian claimed Jesus was spurious, counterfeit, invented :
"why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice ".
Julian was
"convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.."
So,
do you accept the word of those ancient writers, Peg ?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 6:46 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 239 of 306 (496956)
01-31-2009 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Peg
01-31-2009 7:28 AM


Re: The Ever-Shifting Goalposts of Biblical Validity
Gday,
Peg writes:
another problem is that people dont lay their life down for something they know to be a myth
Firstly - no-one claimed they "laid their life down for something they know to be a myth" at all. That's NOT the claim - people DO often believe things that are not true. The problem here Peg, is that you seem to believe that BELIEFS are the same as facts. Do you accept the faithful beliefs of Muslims in the same way?
Secondly - people DO lay down their lives for false beliefs (suicide bombers, 9/11 terrorists, Heaven's gate cult etc. etc.)
Thirdly - the legends of Christian martyrs are late un-sourced stories, there is no actual early evidence it happened.
Peg writes:
nor do historians testify that a mythical person was a real person
Again, you have confused historians with faithful believers of your religion.
Peg -
do you believe what Muslims say about Mohamed ?
do you believe what Theosophists say about HPB ?
do you believe what Heaven's gate cult said about Applethwaite ?
do you believe Charles Manson's disciples who claim to have personally eye-witnessed him levitating a bus over a stream?
Hmm?
Do you believe those stories, Peg ?
People believe all sorts of claims that are wrong, including believing in myths.
Ancient peoples believed in, and wrote about :
* Zeus etc.
* Hercules
* Bacchus
* Aesculapius
* Apollo
* etc. etc.
Do you believe in all those figures, Peg?
Or do you only believe writers who agree with your faith?
Please answer.
Modern people STILL believe in fictions, myths or legends:
* Adam
* Moses
* Sherlock Holmes
* Perry Mason
* John Frum
* Ned Ludd
* Don Juan (Carlos Castaneda's master)
* the ascended masters
These are fictions which some people believe TODAY.
Does that make them real, Peg?
Hmmm?
Peg writes:
nor do we set our calanders by the supposed date of the birth of a myth
Peg,
our calendar was created several CENTURIES after the alleged time of Christ, and got the date wrong. Do you really believe that is prooof of anything?
Did you know we have MANY different calendars in use in the world ?
Does the Jewish calendar prove the Flood happened?
Does the Zoroastrian calendar proved Zoroaster existed?
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Peg, posted 01-31-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 245 of 306 (497021)
02-01-2009 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Peg
02-01-2009 4:21 AM


Re: Justin the Martyr was born approx 100CE
Gday,
Peg writes:
the exact year is not known
Peg -
you made claims about the authorship of Matthew, and you were asked questions about it - now you seem to be avoiding the issue.
When was the earliest G.Matthew was attributed to him?
Did you check Justin Martyr?
Does he name the author of Matthew as you claimed?
Peg writes:
but in several manuscripts of the 10th century
A 10th century scribal note?
A millenium later?
Do you really think that is good evidence?
Kapyong
Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Peg, posted 02-01-2009 4:21 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 02-01-2009 10:46 PM Kapyong has replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 253 of 306 (497158)
02-02-2009 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
02-01-2009 10:46 PM


Re: Justin the Martyr was born approx 100CE
Gday,
Peg writes:
you realise you quote minded my post then.
Pardon?
What on earth do you mean ?
Peg writes:
in reply to Modulous i stated that 41CE is the year attributed to the writing.
Yes, you did make that reply.
Which completely avoided the real question.
The question is :
When was the Gospel of Matthew first attributed to him specifically?
(NOT : When do later Christians claim G.Matthew was written?)
By the way - can you please provide some specific details for that manuscript that has the 41CE date?
Peg writes:
i said Justin Martyr makes references to Mathews Gospel.
Indeed you did.
And I pointed out that Justin Martyr NEVER actually referred to Matthew by name, and the quotes he gives are NOT the same as our modern G.Matthew. You never addressed these points.
Peg writes:
His writings go back to 2nd Century so this means that mathews gospel must have been in circulation before the 2nd century.
Did you think we wouldn't notice you dropped those 50 years or so? Justin wrote in the 150s.
In fact what it really shows is that mid 2nd century there were several UN-NAMED gospels known to Christians which were NOT quite the same as ours.
The evidence is quite clear - the Gospels stories gradually appear in Christian history in early-mid 2nd century, initially as UN-named writings, grow and change over the 2nd century, and are finally named by Irenaeus in the 180s.
That's century and a half from the alleged events to the first Christian to name the four evangelists.
(Aristides specifically refers to the Gospel (singular, with no author's name) as being only recently preached in the period 138-161.)
Modern NT scholars agree that we do no know the actual author of any of the Gospels, nor most of the other NT books.
Kapyong.
Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.
Edited by Kapyong, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 02-01-2009 10:46 PM Peg has not replied

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