The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life (Lost /Reformed Thread)

Many times when communicating to each other the idealism of the Genesis, the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil alone takes the focal point.
Yet, there were two trees in the Garden.
When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge, they were destined to perpetuate the fruit of that tree; consequently, death spread to all their descendants. But God said if they were to eat from the Tree of Life they would live forever.

• What does this imply?

God’s first act of creation was to bring forth light. The very next thing He did was separate the light from the darkness. There cannot be cohabitation between light and darkness. When a person seeks God, God begins to separate the light from the darkness in their life. Many times we, as people, take over this work and perform it the only way we know how - through the knowledge of good and evil.

• Is this struggle between law and grace and between flesh and spirit the source of inner dischord afflicting many?

In the Garden of Eden there were two trees that challenged the course of the entire human race - the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life. Metaphorically these same two trees seem to continue to challenge many of us. Whether you become a “Christian” or not these challenges do not end - they may well increase. Many times we will have to choose between the fruit of these trees.

• Could it be, that between them lies the focal point of the dichotomy between the Kingdom of God and the present “evil” age?

Understanding the difference between these two trees may help us to understand the most common errors besetting the entire human race, including those which have repeatedly misled the “church”.

• Is it significant that these two trees were in the center of the garden?
• Could it be, that we must each make a choice which of these trees will be in the center of our life?

Anybody interested in taking a moment and examining the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil??Bible Study, please.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Thank you for the reply jaywill.
I will try to behave ... This is certainly debatable.
Though he may have known how to operate a mexican backhoe, he was not quite Einstein.As we've evidenced, ignorance of the Knowledge of Good and Evil did not choose the Tree of Life in the story.
Mankind's ignorance of the Knowledge of Good and Evil does not contain the Tree of Life's value within its reality.The man is surely not yet wise jaywill.
Contrary, I would suggest uneducated.You seriously disagree? The child often names the pets. lol - great mental prowness ... a stretch jaywill.
It likely required the ability to grunt a plethora of phonological syllables. A long time ago, our cat was named Midnight.
As a child, I was employed to name her ...
She was a black cat.I did not know calculus at the time ... lol - I agree he was a fine human specimen ...
Nonetheless, his carbon based form succumbed to the effects of nature within the sphere. I do not follow.Let's veiw this causally ...
I suggest mankind's brilliance cannot be immediately evidenced, tho rudimentary concepts form as he becomes educated.In your assertion, mankind's exclusivity caused him to be brilliant.
The exclusivity is the cause, and brilliance is somehow the effect.His brilliance is certainly not evident within the Garden account ...Please expound. Now we're cookin' with Mrs.Dash! We concede ...
This can be clearly evidenced by our inability to circumvent the laws of physics, and the likes.
Though gravity's effects can be manipulated for a season, everything must rejoin the sphere or it will expire.Seemingly, no amount of intelligence can successfully defy the governing Laws of the God's universe ...Potentially, all things are accountable to Gravity and Love.What goes up, must come down. Again we concede ...
Though I would say, a high or low IQ can cause a human to "graduate" to trusting the God.Respectively, guilt and lies often make a human "graduate" from wanting to trust the God ...The Son knew this, as evidenced by His interactions with the holy rollin' Pharisees. Concede ... Concede ...
The God's Spirit and the God's Word alone maintain the duty to convict.
It is not the duty of His employees to attempt such feats.
Check with your manager if you don't believe ...Also, in its root, convict equates to convince - not guilt.
Repeat, guilt is not synonymous with convince and convict.The Good One employs Truth to convince.
A jerk employs guilt to the same end. I concede ...Respectively, many feelings of guilt derived from defective interpretations of the God's Word are destructive, not constructive. I concede the God never convinces man of the Truth simply to make him depressed and saddened for His own sake.
However, religion often employs guilty convictions to make one depressed and saddened for its own ends.I'm sure this will continue until the beginning ... And yet, molestations of the God's Word's are wielded callously, in turn driving many away from spiritual and human evolution ... I do not stake that complaint jaywill.
Moreover, I suggest the opposite is true ...In declaring the Truth, if I complain, it is the Word of the God that is not represented truthfully by religious zealots.Pharisees employ guilt for convictions ...The God employs Truth to convince ...You disagree? Are you sore at the God because you were born stupid - lolThis stupidity of man can be equated to the naivety of a newborn baby jaywill.Babies don't know much ... yet.The Truth does not need guilt to convince ...
Life can be very convincing when the facts are openly laid out.You assert the man was brilliant and so, in his brilliance, he chose the Tree of Knowledge.
You then suggest it was the wrong Tree for him to choose.
Where is the logic in this?I assert it was the right choice, though I do not claim man's brilliance as the motivating factor.Ironically enough, this unregretable choice was motivated by a lack of education.You suggest it is a newborn baby's fault it does not know algebra ...Then you assert the newborn baby knew algebra.Which is it? On the contrary brother jaywill ...Now, do you see how words play a bias concerning people's interpretations and emotions?Is it a newborn babies fault it is not yet wise?
This is proposed as nothing more or less than a defence for the human species.
The species is not to blame, any more than you would blame a newborn baby jaywill.If you don't believe me, check Romans 8:19-21.This does not somehow alleviate individual accountability within the human species regarding the God's Law of Love.It remains possible ...
The God allowed His purpose to be written down by men, so that people employing knowledge could more clearly evidence religious misconceptions regarding Him.That's about where I'm at - lolThank you for your time & thought jaywill.
More appreciated than you know ...Edited by Bailey, : spelling

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

My point preceeding this comment was that Adam, the first man created, was very intelligent. I am quite sure that the first specimen of a human being created by God would have in every way been the envy of all who followed him. That would include the envy of his intelligence IMO.On this side of the fall of man into sin, we are all damaged goods.The problem is "If he was so intelligent, they why did he make such a huge blunder to disobey God's instructions ?" That is a good question. I did not see this evidence. I did see that you had such an interpretation. But the account reads that the awesome barrier to partaking of the tree of life was not there before man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When he ate, the barrier of the cherubim, the flamming sword, and the expulsion followed.The way you view the account, you imply that the barrier and expulsion first existed but was removed when Adam took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.This implication of yours that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the path to the tree of life, is a dreadful twisting of the account. It is not novel. It is simply turning the story upside down on its head. These two trees were presented as forms of food. Food is something you take into yourself. As they say "You are what you eat." The only warning God gave to Adam was to be careful what he ate.He was to be careful what got into him, internally. He ate the wrong food. He ate of the forbidden food. He was warned. He was cautioned. There in Genesis there is no positive aspect of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that God mentions.You imply that you know better than God. This is the result of man having taken the wrong food.As I said before, man gained a knowledge of good and evil. And he is very proud of this knowledge. But he does not have the life power to carry out the good that he knows. And he is weak to resist the evil that he knows.These two trees represent that man, the neutral man created by God, could be either joined to God as the divine and uncreated eternal life or he could be joined to God's enemy Satan. The former was unto God's eternal purpose to be expressed as divine life within man. The latter was to man's destruction and death with sin, degradation, corruption.One tree was a way of dependence. The other forbidden tree was a path of rebellion against God, a thrust for independence from God, and eventually a revolt to overthrow the God.It had an attractive sounding name. But its end is the eternal damnation of the lake of fire. This was Satan's tree.Man needs the life of God. And the NT says that fallen man was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) This alienation from the life of God came about when Adam was excluded from taking in the tree of life. It is restored through the Son of God Jesus Christ."He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:13)"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides pon him." (John 3:36)I think you should abandon the idea that God chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as the way for man to arrive at the life of God of the tree of life. It was that tree of the knowledge of good and evil which resulted in man being "alienated from the life of God."Latter, I believe in Exodus, God tells Israel that He has set before them good and evil, and that they should choose good that they may live. Apparently this argues for your position.However, we eventually see that the good is God Himself. Eventually this choosing of good is to take into our being the Triune God Himself embodied in the Son and imparted through the Holy Spirit. I see some validity to that statement.But how can we argue that Adam chose wrongly? Perhaps by the providence and sovereignty of God it all came out for the better. For example - "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28)By God's sovereignty, we might say that the saved among us, are wiser. I would not argue about that. But that is different from changing how the account of Genesis goes. God did not want man to take of the tree of life or man would die, period. I know a child gives names to stuffed animals and pets. However my point is the managerial prowness of the first created man. Arthur Custance wrote a article in the Doorway Papers about what it meant for Adam to give names to the animals. This defining of their nature in his naming revealed great inteligence according to Custance.And that was not one or two pets. It was all the living creatures. Frankly I don't see how one human being could do that.Man is a marvelous creation. But he must have this union with the divine and uncreated eternal life which is God Himself. He must be in an "organic" union and mingling with God. That is why he was created in the image of God.Just like the glove fits into the hand, so man was made for the eternal invisible Divine Being to fit right into him. This reality was presented to man through the tree of life in the midst of the garden.His other choice was to be joined to the one who has the authority of death - the Devil " ... He [Christ] also Himself in like manner partook of the same [flesh and blood] that He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil ..." (Heb. 2:14)Adam was created to crush God's enemy. Instead he joined God's enemy. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the gateway that brought man into bondage with this god of death. He came under Satan's authority. He became polluted and corrupted. He became Satanified. And as a result the way to the life of God was barred by the cherubim of glory and the flamming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.I would advize you not to try to revize this terrible plunge of mankind into sin and death by speaking highly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam must have learned to speak from God. My opinion is that the first model of a human being was superior in every way to the rest of us fallen and damaged descendents.But that is not as important as seeing that Adam was to take into himself the divine and uncreated life which is God Himself.God wanted a planet filled with people like Jesus Christ. And that is what He is going to obtain in eternity. He did not simply want a good man. He wanted a God-man. Jesus is the second man. Jesus is the last Adam. And Jesus is the first God-man a man mingled and united totally with God to express the glory of God in humanity.Do you disagree with this ? Well, it says that he gave names not to one pet but to all the animals. I regard that as a real feat of intelligence. I have no comment about this right now. The important point to me is that the education most crucial he had from God's direct instructions - "And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16,17)[/b]You're saying "But look at all the wonderful things in which Adam was educated from eating of that forbidden tree."In essence you are arguing that it is better to disobey God and learn on your own. But the death, the agony, the judgment, the sin, the sorrow and tears, the vanity, the emptiness, the wandering, the futility, the hard taskmaster of Satan God's enemy, the shame, the murders, the rapes, the wars, the curse, the shortage of so many necessary things, the starvation, the pride, the arrogance, the prejudice ...etc.I think that only the merciful sovereignty of God could bring anything positive out of this disobedience and fall of Adam, through His divine salvation in Jesus Christ.If you warn your child not to drink a bottle of poison, I don't think you would be pleased that he thought "I think I will not listen and drink this poison so that I may be better educated."He thus has two problems:1.) He is now in a situation of enmity with you. Though you still love him, he has still trangressed your word, misunderstood your heart, and disobeyed your instructions.2.) He is being destroyed by the poison which he has taken into him.Similarly, taking in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:1.) Made man transgress God's perfect will. He is now a sinner in enmity with the holy and perfect God. He has an adversarial relationship to his Maker.2.) He has not only trangressed. He is internally poisoned. The poison is polluting him, rendering him to malfunction, and killing him.He needs forgiveness and he needs healing from the poison. The need for a judicial redemption and an organic salvation to flush out Satan and impart the divine life is now the story of the rest of the Bible. I am not sure what you mean by man's exclusivity. I said that the first created man was in a superb condition mentally. That is all.
If you want to argue that for example, Solomon or Albert Einstien was wiser than Adam, well, that's at least arguable. My only point is the newly created human mind which Adam possessed was in great condition.The high IQ of Adam is not a major doctrine for me. I don't think I will remark any more on this. You are welcomed to see it differently.So I will move past this point now. Mrs. Dash ? Did I miss something ? More to the point is his failure to circumvent the law of sin and of death apart from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. That is the Spirit of life incidently."There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Rom. 8:1,2)Those who now receive Jesus Christ have at their disposal the life of God embodied in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This divine life of Christ contains a higher law which can overcome the law of sin and of death. That is the law which Paul could not overcome in the previous chapter. He ends the previous chapter with these words:"I find then the law with me who wills to do the good, that the evil is present with me." (7:21)You see man gained the knowledge of good and evil but lacked the power to perform the good and resist the evil."For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man. But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members." (vs.22,23)You see this evil force is at work in the members of Paul's body. This came about from Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Paul knows the good and delights in it. The law of God instructions him to perform the good. But in his members is the law of sin. He is a captive. Adam reached from independence. He got captivity. He got slavery to the law of sin and of death. Don't you see this?"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?

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Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

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So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." (vs. 24,25)How will man be delivered from this law of sin and death ? It is by the redemption of Christ firtly allowing him to come to the holiness of God's Person. And it is by the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus freeing him from the law of sin and death and the wretch situation of self condemnation."[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)This Savior and Lord Jesus is the tree of life for us today. He is the Spirit of life. He is the life giving Spirit. He conveys God Himself into man that man may learn to live in union with the eternal divine Person.I will cut my response here for length's sake.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : Spelling choiceEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thank you for the exchange jaywill. Yes, I concede ...
Adam was the envy of all the wild beasts, although it does not somehow negate his inherent lack of knowledge and wisdom.
Being the envy of a racoon does not seem to strengthen the defense of Adam's intelligence, or lack thereof ...The God created the species without knowledge or wisdom.
The "magic" fruit did not give it either of the two.
It simply gave us the ability to assemble some ...Please demonstrate otherwise. It only becomes a problem when one injects a "pre-intelligence" factor that does not actually exist. Not really a good question, so to speak.It is obvious, for all intents and purposes, that the Lovebirds did not possess intelligence to begin with.This all but explains their choice, and so there is little, if any, reason to suppose otherwise ... I find it hard to imagine you believe the Tree of Life contained any value to the Lovebirds.
If you have any evidence to support this notion please submit it accordingly with a chapter and verse.
Though the evidence of its lack of value to the Lovebirds is very plain, follow closely below ...
All who discount the Truth will not see it. Exactly my point jaywill.The Tree of Life is "unguarded" and the Lovebirds do not associate any value to it. If they did it would be evident by them choosing it.
Seeing as they didn't, it seems safe to assume they associated an arbitrary value to another tree ...The Tree of Knowledge.You disagree? I concede ...Yet all who associate a value with the Tree of Life are welcomed to partake.
It is simply those who do not, that may not.You disagree? I never stated such a load of bullocks - lol
I asserted that, prior to the Lovebirds choosing, the appointed time for the Tree of Life had not been fulfilled.Also, I asserted that measures were taken to promote a value to the Tree of Life.
And it was indeed done after the uneducated man chose the Tree of Knowledge.You assert the God enacted measures that alienate mankind from Him.
I simply state your "alienating measures" serve better as an emergency beacon to the distressed. I do not know of any way a Tree of Knowledge can survive, apart from evolving into a Tree of Life.
It is the God's plan and I had little, if anything, to do with it.
You will have to take this matter up with Him. It is not neccesary for mankind to consider The God's plan's novel.
Whether they are deemed so or not will not effect their implementation. And, to the God's credit, Adam was not careful, nor prevented from making his own choices.On the third day of creation the God established an important Law.
He declared that trees would only bear fruit and produce seeds of their own kind. (Genesis 1:11,12)
If you are born into the human species you are of Adam's lineage, and so you are a Tree of Knowledge.
I'm not trying to offend you, though it remains, this is our inherent family Tree like it or not.
Forgive Adam in your heart if this bitters you ...So it is not whether the God wants you to partake of the Tree of Knowledge, but rather ...
He knows the human species must if there is any hope of a remnant of them evolving into Trees of Life.Without knowledge, there can be no Wisdom.
Without Wisdom, one cannot survive ... You have implied I know better than the God.
I assert that I am wiser than religion.A result of paying no mind to the Pharisees.
I credit the Wisdom to the God ... That's the standard dogma I'd assume ...We must be a "neutral man" for this scenario to apply for us.
Adam was the only "neutral" and so, he has prevented this end.Respectively, the Tree of Knowledge and the Tree of Life are symbolic of two lineages or "family trees".
Two separate species that the God loves unconditionally and has caused to evolve from one another. The Tree of Life will exemplify Wisdom. The Tree of Knowledge will exemplify relative knowledge. I concede ...
As well, it will provide Wisdom and Survival ... though it will not be fulfilled apart from its correspondent. Your "forbidden" tree will provide knowledge and value regarding the Tree of Life. Do not be decieved.Both trees belong to the God and both will remain forever in His Love.
At the appointed time you will see the Two Trees live peacefully side by side.
The Relative one will try its best to cut them both down ...Yet it will not succeed. Any alienation of the God regarding man can be attributed to mankind's Pharisees, as well as mankind's lack of certainty. This I concede to whole heartedly. I cannot, in a good conscience, abandon the reality of the God's survival techniques jaywill.Perhaps you found an alternate method of survival.
I do not see any other way.Knowledge must evolve to Wisdom. Again, any "alienation" can be credited to uncertainty regarding the God's Wisdom or Pharisees.
The Tree of Knowledge will ultimately result in the fulfillment of the Tree of Life. I am pleased the God has given you some confirmation regarding our discussion.
He has offered me the same courtesy on your behalf. One within the sphere will not evidence this reality without first employing knowledge.
There is no other way for our species to conclude this.Without this conclusion, our species cannot survive.Thank you for your time jaywill ...
I know it can be a rare commodity.As well, thank you for your thoughts.
I'll continue as time permits ...Knowledge = Death
Wisdom = SurvivalOne LoveEdited by Bailey, : greetingEdited by Bailey, : grammar

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

My point was not that he was superior in intelligence to all the beasts. I was comparing the first man to all the other descendent human beings.While I think it is humble of you to concede a point, that was not the point I was making. What Adam before the fall had a more direct communication with God from which he derived the essentials of wisdom that he needed. The human conscience seems to have been like an emergence brake that was activated when man left this direct communion with God.Somehow with man God created an "emergency brake system" of the human conscience in the event that Adam left this direct communion with God.Now while I do not understand everything about these two trees, it seems evident that there was an immediate consequence to Adam's taking the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." ... she took of its fruit, and she also gave [some] to her husband with her, and he ate. And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves." (See Gen. 3:6,7)Something undoubtedly took place when Adam ate. The Apostle Paul says that the evil spirit operates in the sons of disobedience."And you, though dead in your offenses and sins, in which we once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience ... and were by nature the children of wrath." (See Eph. 2:1-3)The eating of that forbidden tree invited the Satanic spirit to begin to operate in "the sons of disobedience". I take that to mean the sons of the disobedient Adam.And somehow the conscience of man was awakened. Or it became engaged in a new way in which it previously was not necessary to be engaged.The Satanic spirit in the air which was left over from a pre-Adamic rebellion, was lurking, seeking opportunity to ruin God's plan. He infested man and began to operate in man. He changed the nature of man and caused man to be by nature a child of the wrath of a righteous and holy Creator - " ... and were by nature the children of wrath.". I think I have attempted to reply above. However, my understanding of this forbidden fruit is different. It represented a way of existence which was in rebellion to God. I do think that when we try to analyze how man could be without knowledge or wisdom we may have problems.That tree was like a line in the sand that Adam could not cross. He could think about the tree. He could sing about it if he wished. He could ask God about it. He could talk about. He could do any of these things. But he must not eat of it.Once he ate, he crossed the line.It helps me to realize that the command was simply not to eat of that tree. I would not venture to conjecture too far into area you muse on. I can't say that Adam had no knowledge. I can't even say that Adam had no wisdom.All I can say is the the command not to eat was the line beyond which Adam was not to pass. I think this is what we have to put emphasis on.I will skip down a little. Here again I think I, if not you, get into trouble. This kind of thought is like saying that Adam had no mind before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.I do not think that this is the case. And it may be difficult for us even to imagine the pre-fallen Adam because we are all fallen people on this side of his damaged being.I don't think I can really fully know too much about what it was like to be a neutral man, a good man, prior to the fall. That is a position which no one of us has ever had.I would not speculate too much on what kind of thoughts this first created but neutral man had. I would speculate a little bit. The Bible says that the woman was deceived. Adam is held more responsible as if he was not deceived." ... Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been quite deceived, has fallen into transgression." (1 Tim. 2:14)The serpent is a liar and an enemy of God. Though he is malignant he appears as a angel of light. [b]" ... for Satan himself transfigures himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if also his ministeres transfigure themselves into ministers of righteousness ..." (See 2 Cor. 11:14,15)I believe that the mandate for Adam to excercise dominion over all the earth and over the creeping things was violated when he ate of the tree at the suggestion of the creeping thing - the serpent.The question of what was a God opposing liar doing in God's paradise has been a puzzle to us ever since. Adam, had he acted according to the divine mandate should have not listened to any creeping beast telling him to directly transgress the instructions of the Creator.When he ate, he crossed the line. He came out from his neutral position and was now under the authority of God's enemy Satan. Adam was created to guard the garden. And I believe that the two trees were mutually exclusive. Had he taken of the tree of life he in conjunction with God would have destroyed the lying serpent from the paradise of God forever.Adam was not created to be under the Devil. He was created to guard the garden and most likely participate in the Devil's execution.There was a triangle situation here in Genesis. At one end was God and the tree of life. At the other end was Satan and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In between the two was Adam. The destiny of the creation would be determined by which choice Adam would make out of his free will. I know that Adam did not eat at all from the tree of life. I do not know exactly why. The Devil got to him first.It is usually Satan's way to rush ahead of God's plan with an imitation. The enemy of God knows something about the truth. He runs ahead to preemtively derail God's plans. Judging from the rest of the Bible, it meant everything. In the end of the Bible the tree of life prevails.But at this time Christ Jesus is the divine life. We should think of Jesus as the tree of life in reality today and for eternity. I would refer you to the entire Gospel of John.Pay attention to the usage of the word life in every chapter.I would encourage you to read two books by Witness Lee - The Knowledge of Life" and "The Experience of Life".Examine Living Stream Ministry - Publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Find the bookstore. Or search on Affirmation and Critique. Look at the titles to some of the articles which mention LifeHere is the link to Affirmation and Critique Christian periodical - Affirmation & Critique - A Journal of Christian ThoughtThe tree of life meant what we would call REGENERATION.
It stood for God dispensing His divine life into man.Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration Concerning evolution of man, I would concede that the human conscience can and has developed through culture sometimes.I don't think this is Darwinian Evolution. I think the enfluence of God's word upon culture sometimes makes the human conscience even of unbeliever's a little more keen to morality. Then I guess I am getting lost as to what IS your point. That it was somehow overlooked or under appreciated, I cannot argue.But they had the disadvantage of being tempted away from it by the enemy of God.It is hard to know what could have happened. We know from the account what DID happen. They chose to believe the lies of Satan embodied in the serpent. We who have the Gospel do not have to make that same mistake.We can come to Christ moment by moment for the divine life. We can allow the divine Person to dwell in us by letting Christ make His home in our hearts through faith:"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:17)We can come to Christ for the life of God. We can come to Christ to live God and to allow God to live in us. Amen to that. That tree of life is Jesus Christ. "In Him was life ..." Not really. Once having heard the Gospel, it is our choice to come to Jesus that we may have life.Once we are redeemed and born again we can come moment by moment to learn to live in the sphere and realm of the living and indwelling Christ.Eventually every believer will be swallowed up within and without in this eternal life which is Christ, which is the very Triune God Himself. That is probably true. But the tree of life was there. Its being there was not meaningless. It is just that in God's providence and in His sovereignty man has taken the long route through Adam's disobedience.I think our main concern should be with what we do with the life of God today. We should not be too over occupied with analyzing why Adam failed. It is only profitable perhaps as a warning that we could also fail to take in Christ as the life of God that we may have eternal life.Having said this, I do not intend to change, though, the account of the story by any means. I am not willing to change what Genesis says in order to emphasize some theology or philosophy. We have to work with what is written.I think I will conclude here. I think in this post we find some matters that we concur together on, unless I don't understand some of your comments. That's possible. I would only reply here that the New Testament says that Christ Himself is the wisdom of the believers. It is not as if God gives us a package of "wisdom" apart from Jesus Himself. Jesus becomes the disciple's wisdom:"But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the wisdom of God and the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:24)"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption." (1 Cor. 1:30) I don't disagree with this because God's intention was to save man from that alienation from the life of God.God could still speak to man and give His laws to man. The indwelling of God as life could not take place until the redemptive act of Jesus. He was judged for the sins of the world. Justice was accomplished upon the Son of God on behalf of all who believe. That opened the way for God to dispense His life in His Holy Spirit into man's human spirit to regenerate him.I think I mentioned before that God intended not to leave man alienated from the life of God. The symbols of the slain cattle foreshadowed the redemption of Christ and the justification imputed to the sinner through Christ.This symbolism is repeated many many times in the Old Testament in various types and figures. The goal: to bring man back to the life of God that God and man may be united to be one.I will stop here for length's sake. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi Bailey, Where was this tree of knowledge located?When was the first man told the Tree of Life existed and it's location? What exactly was the choices this first man had?Thanks in advance.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Greetings jaywill ... In the God's wisdom, if He desired Adam to take the Tree of Life exclusively,
The God would have been forthright with Adam and asked him to take of it.
Cutting down the "poison" Tree apparently would not have been a wise move.
Otherwise, the God would have done it.All I know is the first mans choice, leads to The Second Man's choice, which leads to my survival.
Each of these men's choice will be responsible for the evolution of their corresponding species.The God's Law of Love has circumvented any other possibilities.
It's forces are not defiable.We can debate ...* whether the Lovebirds were uncertain regarding the counsel of the God.
* whether the God knew of their uncertainty ahead of time ...Or ultimately, whether the God intentionally created the human species with inherent uncertainty regarding His counsel and the Law of Love. Good verse jaywill ...
This can assist in building our faith in the God when we cannot accept that He does not oopsy. Nor would I ...
I would also assert, the wiser among us will evolve, physically and spiritually, unto the Sons of God.
It is the only way to live two times. What is different is how we interpret the account.
In reality the God's Law of Love exclusively motivates His decisions, and thus the forces of the universe.A good portion of religious zealots, as well as others, suggest the God is motivated by other means ...Love proclaims the God layed charge upon the human species not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
Guilt proclaims He "forbade" them. This is pharisidical and it alters the Truth.Love proclaims the God prophecied the effects the Tree of Knowledge would afford the human species.
Guilt proclaims He "punished" them. This is pharisidical and it alters the Truth.Love proclaims the only way a member of the human species can choose to survive is to evolve into something that is more than human.
Guilt proclaims " you must choose between the Two Trees or you are damned to 'hell' ". This is pharisidical and it alters the Truth.I suggest the God desires the human species to understand the legacy of the Two Trees.Regarding relative knowledge, there is no universal witness to the effects absolute Wisdom can cause.
Regarding absolute Wisdom, there is no universal witness to the effects relative knowledge can cause.Their relative merits and values cannot be accessed apart from one another.
The Trees of Knowledge must too exist, aside the Trees of Life.
Each is only partly evident without the other.The God has employed The Trees of Knowledge to multiply and subdue the Earth.
As well, we serve to document the events taking place in the universe.Rest assured, it is not a coincidence that ...
Science and religion each serve their purposes very well.
Humans do very well at reproducing and commanding possesion of the sphere.
Many within the species are, beyond question, exceedingly great at documenting the events within our reality.
The God does not oopsy.Although they expire after a season, I am not willing to assert the human species is less beloved to God than His other species.
They simply don't last as long. This is not a surprising fact when you compare the life cycles of animals within the sphere.
Tho the life spans are quite variable within carbon based forms, it is not common for them to survive long.Even 980 years is a speck in the universe ...I assert the God desires us to choose, and implement, the good from between the good and evil knowledge we assemble.
He also wants us to decide if we want to evolve from the human species and live twice ...Once within our sphere, and then within His cosmos.
Some are not interested and that is their choice.If the God was going to force our hand He would have done it by cutting down the Tree of Knowledge.
Then we would have no choice in the matter.Who will contently serve a God that gives no choices, when many won't serve The One who does?Do you see?As evidenced, only one choice was required for our species to establish a corporeal existence ... be uncertain regarding the God.
In the same way, only one choice is required to evolve from it ...Be certain regarding the Son of God.One LoveEdited by Bailey, : grammar

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Thank you for the exchange ICANT. In the midst of the garden ... As this tree was not appointed to the human species, the God did not tell the first man where it was, nor of its existence. Same as the rest of the species ...Be certain of the God's Words, or be uncertain of the God's Words.Be good ICANT.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

But below you write this which seems contradictory to me. I don't think God would do this alone. He wanted man to coordinate and participate in execution of the serpent and his whole realm of rebellion.I don't think that the Creator will deal direcly with the Rebel. He would create another creature, Man. And with the cooperation of the consenting creature God would destroy the rebellious creature.I think delegation of deputy authority was on the heart of God and still is. He wanted Adam to coordinate with Him eliminate from paradise the lying serpent. Well put. But not only does it lead to our survival. It leads to the cooperative man coordinating with God to destroy God's enemy. What you call evolution I would call transformation or conformation. Or I should say in the case of Christ the last Adam, it is transformation. In the case of the first Adam, it is corruption - a downward trend.transformation - "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove whoat the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2) conformation - "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers..." (Rom. 8:29)My understanding of this change has nothing to do with biological evolution. Doubt was put into their minds. The serpent caused them to doubt God's heart. When they ate, they crossed the line into trangression. I think God knew everything. This is rather mysterious. Ephesians says that God is displaying His multivarious wisdom to the principalities in the heavenlies.I have noticed that in Genesis there is no direct command to eat of the tree of life. It is simply one of the trees which Adam had the right to partake of.I have also noticed that it is perculiar why Adam did not partake of it right away. I was discussing our conversation with another Chritian brother after my meeting this morning. He pointed out some very good things.I am slightly more sympathetic to some aspects of your views previously mentioned. The fall of man was not one. It was in four stages. And to live by the knowledge of good and evil is superior to the next lower stage to which man fell - human government.The man who truly lives by conscience, the brother told me, does not need human government. And conversly, the man who lives directly by communion with God does not need human conscience.That is a mouth full may present some objections. But I think he had a point which I previously did not include.He also spoke an analogy of a airplane landing on an aircraft carrier. It seeks to hook on to one of so many cables stretched across the ship. These cables are meant to prevent the plane from sliding off altogether into the water.The last cable God threw out to halt the progressive decline of man in his falls, was the law of God.So I see a fall from direct communion with God to the awakening of human conscience to the formation of human government to the giving of the law of God. I this regard there was not one fall but a series of downward falls away from God.I think that this allows us to view some positive aspect of the knowledge of good and evil.Having said all this I would again repeat that in the sense of God's full salvation - Christ Himself the Person is the wisdom of God by which the saved are to live. He is also the life of God. And of course He took care of the problem separating man from the life of God.He expressed the glory of God meeting that demand. He expressed the holiness of God in a man. And He was righteous absolutely and bore the righteous judgement of man's sins in Himself as our substitute. He paid the debt to the law of God. He redeemed the believers our from under the curse of the law. I don't know enough about how you are using the term evolution. I do like this kind of utterance. He did forbid them to eat of that tree. And love is one aspect of God. There are other aspects of God.This tree was not the tree of gambling or the tree of stealing. It was not the tree of murder or the tree of fornication. All these base things are obviously bad.The subtlety is that it appears so noble and so right. What could be more right than the knowledge of good and evil. But what I am not sure you grasp is that behind this great sounding name was the principle of rebellion against the authority of God.Can you understand what I am trying to convey ? Satan first came to man behind something not obviously unclean and evil but behind something sounding SO very noble and good.I am not sure you GRASP the pernicious subtlety of the enemy here. Listen, it was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But in actuality is was a TREE OF DEATH !Pure speculation here. I have said before, perhaps as in the book of Job God and Satan were in a contest. Perhaps God said that He would give man a choice between Himself and His enemy. Maybe God said in essence:"We will have two trees. One will be representative of you. It will be called the Tree of Death. The other will represent Me, God. It will be called the Tree of Life."Then maybe the Devil said "No. No. Do not call it the Tree of Death. Call it something nice like ... the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."Then maybe God replied:"Okay. I will call it the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, I will WARN the man that to EAT of it will bring death !"This is just my imagination. However, I think that what was going on there in Genesis was similar to the contest we see between God and His accusing advasary Satan in the book of Job. They laid out terms of the contest.Possible, you think ? It is a wrong view of true love to assume that there is no correction or punishment involved in love. This is an extreme permissiveness which assumes that love means ANYTHING GOES.If you are a parent, you must have noticed that at times your love was a swat in the seat of the pants ? Am I right ?If you loved your child, you must have noticed that Love sometimes involved restriction, discipline, education, correction, and hand upside the fanny of a loved but naughty child. Ring any bells maybe? I'm a little tired now. But I think you very much desire to somehow work a regard for biological evolution into the Bible.I just have no comment on that now.It has been a pleasure. I will cut short here for length's sake. God bless our further reading and meditating on His holy word.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Quick reply to jaywill ... I'm not sure how these statements contradict one another.The former statement supposes a God that imposes His choice.The latter supports the God that allows you to adopt your own choice.Hope that helps ...One LoveEdited by Bailey, : grammar

Hi Bailey, Is it your position that this tree was all knowledge and if mankind had not eaten the fruit he would have remained without any knowledge whatsoever? This is what I am getting from your posts.How do you get that from this: That verse says the fruit of the tree contained the knowledge of good and evil. Nothing is said about all knowledge. The only choice I see that this first man had was to live and keep the garden or to eat the fruit and die. I see no other option.I do not see where any other species was given a choice. I wish I could be good but I am told: But that does not keep me from trying and one day I will be perfect when: God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thank you for the exchange ICANT. No, this assertion does not represent my position well.As jaywill pointed out, the man was in the process of naming the lot of animals within the sphere.
He was employed to farm the lands, which would have likely advanced the knowledge of agriculture.
I assert these tasks require various forms of knowledge ...As well, these very acts are establishing what will become existing knowledge. I am not religious, so maybe take what I say with a grain of salt.That being said, as intelligent or ignorant as the Lovebirds were, they were lacking in one crucial area.
Mankind did not have the ability to be certain of the God's Words when comparing them to someone else's ...And so it remains ... tho not for long.
Love never fails. It doesn't seem all knowledge would have evaded the human species though ...Mainly just the knowledge of the relativity of good ...
And the knowledge of the relativity of evil.The Lovebird's uncertainty in the Words of the God begin to establish another form of knowledge ...
This knowledge shall serve as an awesome backdrop for the God's Wisdom if ever they are compared.If one of them exists without the other, there is no basis of comparison between them.
Yet when they both exist, their relative values and merits can & will be accessed.The God separates the Lovebirds from the Trees, yet He does not separate the Trees from one another.
The Two Trees, and what they represent, will remain together for all of time.When the Lovebirds discard the Words of the God, it is the reality of the Two Trees that is separated from them.
Both Trees shortly become a mystery within the imagination of mankind.All they have left to show evidencing their account is a sacrafice and some prophecies.
And so it is for all within the species. Yep, you got it for the most part.
Though your choices are not choices, but rather consequences from the Lovebird's course of action ... (Cause - Choice) Be certain of the God's Words & (Effect - Consequence) live and keep the garden.or ... (Cause - Choice) Be uncertain of the God's Words & (Effect - Consequence) eat the fruit and die. And I don't think such a notion can be evidenced within the account.
It is my understanding that this account regards the human species. lol - I should have guessed by your screen name ... You love the Son and you are perfect to the God.
You simply have yet to come to your fulfillment ...One Love

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Adam must have known that God was the Creator. And Adam knew how to speak from God rather than another human being. He also knew that it was God who was responsible for his wife.He must have known that it was God who gave all the beings life, so that He should know the most about life. Without any doubt the highest man who ever lived is Jesus Christ. He lived directly by the Father's life within Him. He did not live by the knowledge of good and evil apart from His Father.Adam responding directly to God was a higher state of existence then Adam in bondage to Satan with all the knowledge of good and evil.He was created that way from the start. The only thing he did not have was God Himself indwelling Him. But he did have a communion with God which instructed him of all things God needed from him.He was dependent upon God. He was very good. What he needed to be aware of was given to him by direct fellowship with His Creator. When he fell from that state two things happened.Firstly, he was joined to Satan the advasary of God. He was Satanified.Secondly, the God created human conscience as a brake system awoke to restrict man somewhat from further degradations.The story of Cain and Abel follows. In Cain you have the first recorded instance of a man NOT obeying his conscience. The result is the invention of religion and murder.Cain invented a way to come to God apart from the revealed way. He ignored revelation and invented his own procedure to approach God.THough it is not explicitly written, I believe that the offering of the cattle with blood was the worship that Adam and Eve learned from God and taught to thier children. I think they learned this from the event of God slaying the cattle and clothing them with the skins when they had sinned.I think that somewhere along the line God had revealed to Adam and Eve that they should offer this kind of offering occasionally. It was a worship based on revelation. Cain ingnored that and invented his own religion, the world's first religion.Cain also would not resist the temptation and sin lurking in his heart. He suppressed his awakened conscience and murdered his brother. He also had no sense of remorse except for himself.The knowledge of good and evil had passed on to Cain. But Cain did not perform the good that he knew and did not resist the evil that he knew.The further history of Genesis reveals how all of mankind fell lower and lower into immorality. Obviously, the knowledge of good and evil in the human conscience did not stop the whole society from being wicked continually.So the flood came. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was saved.Following this further decline and universal judgement we have God instituting human government. What they had before was anarchy. But I mean anarchy in a positive sense. Everyone was to live by their human conscience - by the knowledge of good and evil. But it became anarchy in the worst sense and the whole society became wicked.After the flood it was determined that the principle should be that those who did live by conscience should excercise government over those who would not.In principle this is why we have governments. I say in principle. It is because some men will not listen to their conscience. Therefore there is government to limit and restrict the behavior of those who will not listen to conscience.My purpose here is just to show how Genesis traces the successive declines of the human race from its creation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thank you for the exchange jaywill.
Feel encouraged to start a thread to discuss the two brothers ...
I will gladly participate (granted, that is not much incentive - lol) Not to imply the assumption is without merit, yet ...
It doesn't seem to be evidenced by the text.
Please demonstrate otherwise ... Not to imply the assumption is without merit, yet ...
It doesn't seem to be evidenced by the text.
Please demonstrate otherwise ... Not to imply the assumption is without merit, yet ...
It doesn't seem to be evidenced by the text.
Please demonstrate otherwise ... I'm not sure I understand what this is meant to convey.It remains, apart from faith, mankind did not have the inherent ability to be certain of the God's Words when comparing them to someone else's.
And so it still is ... tho not for long.
Love never fails.Please demonstrate otherwise ... Bob Marley may have been nearly as high ...
The difference is the Son of the God's buzz never wears off.It remains, Bob Marley accepted the Truth of the Son of the God because he adopted Wisdom that many discredit.Apologies for the drivel ... Not only did the Son of the God not live by the knowledge of good and evil apart from His Father ...
I suggest the Son did not live by the knowledge of good and evil at all.He lived with the relativity of the knowledge of good and evil, by the Wisdom of Love. To bolster your point ...
Seemingly, there need not have been any spoken words to communicate with the God prior to the Tree incident.
If you'll notice, Adam does not respond directly to the God until after he takes from the Tree of Knowledge.In reference to the bit about Eve and Adam's bones & flesh (Gen 2:23) one may consider him doing so, yet ...
The account does not directly infer the God as his audience as is done further into the account.Adam was likely talking to his bride while continuing his employment of naming things.I am hard pressed to demonstrate otherwise. What way is that ... perfectly uncertain? I concede Adam did not have the God indwelling within him from the beginning.
Yet, the other thing He did not have was certainty of the God's words.Tho I digress ...
I suggest, much like the Two Trees, one cannot be had without the other. I concede the communion with the God communicated to Adam all things the God shall expect of him.The communion did not originally equip him with the ability to be certain of the God's Words when comparing them to someone else's though.
That would have made mankind just another drone species.
We too are the God's children.
Not slaves to the grind.The remnant and knowledge that remains will provide that certainty of the God's Words, when uncertainty finishes committing species suicide.
This remains an effect of the Tree of Knowledge and, respectively, the human species.Having read the account now, and witnessing existence with the relativity of good and evil, both Trees will have certain evidence of the God's Words.One LoveEdited by Bailey, : spellingEdited by Bailey, : grammar

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary