The Tree of Life as God's Life

Hi jaywill, When Jesus made the statement how many churches was in existence at that time?It seems there was one group of people who had been called out for a specific reason.Jesus met with them daily and taught them what they needed to know to carry the Gospel to the world when the Gospel was finished. Why?Why do you assume He is speaking in universal terms? Based upon what text? Since Jesus was speaking to the Church when He made that statement why do you assume He meant the church universal? I would certainly hope all the members of the Church at Ephesus was in the family (household) of God and citizens of Heaven. But I doubt it very seriously. No it just means the family of God and the Church is two different entities just as the kingdom is another entity. I don't find "BEING BUILT" in the Greek text. So I need reference. But Paul is addressing a local visible assembly of God's children who have covenanted together to carry out the Great Commission. He is not addressing some invisible assembly, that is gathered together in some invisible building, in some invisible place. The Church that Jesus begin to dome up had 120 members when the day of Pentecost was fully come. They had had a business meeting and elected someone to take Judas place. The requirements for that person was that he had accompanied with them from the baptism of John the Baptist.On the day of Pentecost Peter preached and others witnessed in the native tongue of at least 17 different countries.

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Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

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They gladly received his word. They believed.He that believeth is not condemned.
The Greek work translated believeth in John 3:18 means absolute trust in.So they were born again of the Holy Spirit.Then they were baptized.Then they were added to the Church.That is God's order and any other order is out of order. There may be a universal church but you have not presented any evidence that one exists yet.What difference does it make what some English translations say.If it is not in the original text it is a lie.Don't get me wrong I know that there will come a day when Jesus comes in the air. He will call those who make up His Bride and they will be judged according to their works and rewarded accordingly. This group will be a local assembly of called out people for the specific purpose of the wedding of the Lamb of God and His Bride. The marriage supper will take place. Then Jesus will return to earth bringing His Bride with Him who will rule and reign over the earth for 1000 years.Abraham and John the Baptist will be honored guests at the wedding but neither will be a part of the Bride of Christ.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I didn't claim anything like that.
My point remains that the one who dispenses the life of God into man is Christ so He controls who has the indwelling divine life therefore He controls who is a member of His church. Everyone into whom Christ has made His home through faith by the Holy Spirit is in an experience "with all the saints". "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you being rooted and grounded in love, may be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints ... " (Eph. 3:17-18) The word mystical I could not find. However here it says that His Body is the church: Underline the words "the church, which is His Body". I don't think questions asked more than once I will answer over again. My previous post was all I need to establish the basic scriptural truth of the existence of the universal church. I need not find a quotation specifically putting together the two words.This is like demanding that the word "Trinity" be found in the Bible. The fact is there. And the fact of a church which spans all times and all places is there in Scripture as a universal gathering. Members of the Roman Catholic Church, if they are born of the Spirit of God, are also members of the Body of Christ the church. Deciding to call oneself a Roman Catholic does not make one born again not born again.And if they are born again they are a constituient of the universal church. So I say Paul and Madame Guyon ( one Catholic who wrote some spiritual books ) are both members of the universal church. Paul's letter to the church in Corinth also was addressed to those everywhere who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose Lord is both their and ours: The letter is sent to Corinth. But its audience includes those in every place who call on Jesus Christ. He is their Lord also as well as ours. They are all saints and therefore all constituents of the universal church. In the case of the First book of Ephesians we assume he writes to the church in Ephesus. I think the assumption is correct. However the salutation simply says "to those who are in Ephesus" (v.1)Of course those Christians should be the understanding.Now the second letter to Ephesus is written by John and is directly from Christ. That is in the book of Revelation: "What you see write in a book and send it to the seven churches ... to Ephesus ..." (Rev. 1:11)"To the messenger of the church in Ephesus, write ..." (Rev. 2:1)Paul wrote a letter to the churches in Galatia. And just as the letter to Ephesus was to be of benefit to each of the other six churches in principle - "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" so also what Christ spoke through Paul to the churches in Galatia is for the benefit of all the churches.This is why Paul encouraged one church to read the letter written by him to another church: "And when this letter is read among you [in Colossi] cause that it be read in the church of the Laodiceans also, and that you also read the one from Laodicea" (Col. 4:16)And thus Paul all the churches the same (1 Cor. 7:17; 14:33)Because the apostles did not try to unite all the churches on the earth to be one world wide church. This does not mean that there is no universal church.The local church is the local expression of the universal church.The apostle did not unite all the churches in Galatia to be a Galatian church. They did not unite all the churches in Judea to be a Judean church. And they did not unite all the churches to be a World Wide church much less a Roman empire Catholic Church.This does not mean however that there is no universal church as has been revealed already in Matthew 16 and Ephesians 2. Praise the Lord. I have no complaint against that. I am running out of time and cannot comment now.Perhaps I will comment latter on the rest of your post.
Like EMA I will not try to be divisive about the matters.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi jaywill, Either Jesus gave the keys to Peter or the Church so one of them has the authority in the Church. They have had the same experience as all who have born again.We are born into God's family through the new birth when the Holy Spirit seals our spirit until the day of redemption.We are added to God's family not some mystical invisible body.Why did Paul write:

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Ephe 1:1 (KJS) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

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Why did Paul specify the most holy ones at Ephesus and then include the faithful in Christ? 1. Are we talking about His dead body as a corpse?
2. Or are we talking about the bodies of planets and of stars?
3. Or are we talking about a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family.That is the meaning of the Greek word sma which is translated body.Take your pick I will go for the last one. Explain to me how I can tell my young people that about the fifth or sixth time they as me a question about the Bible. I would like to use it in all good concience.They are actually worse than some of these posters here at EvC.You have not answered the question.You may have answered it to your satisfaction but not to mine or the junior class at church. You would be very hard pressed to do that as the word "universal" does not appear in the Bible text anywhere. So why did Paul specifically name the Church at Corinth rather than the Church at Ephesus? Why did Paul use the plural, Churches when He could have said the universal Church of Jesus Christ? Then what will make us study to show ourselves approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed.The more questions I ask you the more I have to study.The more questions you ask me the more I have to study.I call that a win win situation.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

By the time of His speaking in Matthew 16 the church had not come into existence yet. He had called disciples. They had not yet received regeneration. The church had not come into existence yet. But Jesus did have disciples. They did not have all they needed to know because Christ by that time had not yet died and risen from the dead.Christ mentions the church twice in Matthew. Once in chapter 16 and once in chapter 18. The first time it is the coming church in its universal aspect. The second mention in chapter 18 is the local church.Why? Because He instructs His disciples to take the problem to the church. So it has to be a practical church that one can take a problem to. Two or three brothers cannot take their problem to the universal church.So Matthew is quite balanced, recording Christ's mention first of the universal church in chapter 16 and then the local church in chapter 18.But the saints were not regenerated until Christ had risen from the dead. We who have been regenerated have all been so out of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead: " ... according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3)By the time of Matthew chapter 16 Christ had not yet died a redemptive death nor been raised from the dead. The church did not exist yet. But He could prophesy concerning it. I already explained it. You are free to hold another view if you wish. I stand with what I wrote.I will skip contiunued your hammerings on what I already explained from Matthew 16 and Ephesians 2.You are free to hold another opinion on it. I don't know why you would doubt that they are members of the household of God. If a big sinner like you could be forgiven and be a member of God's household, why not these Ephesian brothers and sisters too?I assume you are a Christian brother. Perhaps a sectarian one, but a Christian brother nonetheless. No, the various aspects of what the church is is covered in Ephesians. They all have access to the one Father through the one Spirit.You seem to be teaching diametrically opposed to what Paul is teaching. Why would you say that some who have access to the Father through the Spirit are the church of Jesus and some who have access to the Father through the same Spirit are not ? Ephesians 2:20 - J. N. Darby's New Translation, Recovery Verssion, 1901 American Standard.The NIV Greek - English Interlinear says "having been built"It doesn't matter. the church in Ephesus "ALSO" is being built into a holy temple in the Lord. So the church in Ephesus is included with others in the same process who are not in Ephesus.The meaning is that God has one grand habitation of God in spirit, one grand temple in the Lord. And the saints in Ephesus along with countless other saints are also being built into it. Since He said I will build My church He must be taking about the one universal church. Ephesus would be included.The New Jerusalem at the end of the Bible in Revelation 21 and 22 is the consummate completion of the building of Christ's universal church.Notice that Peter's name is on one of the twelve foundations. So as many mistakes as Peter made, he is still symbolically built into this New Jerusalem.And the church is called the heavenly Jerusalem the city of God in Hebrews 12. They used lots. They were in a transition stage. And since they were up to this time use to the Old Testament way of doing things it is understandable that they relied on casting lots to make the decision.But this is the proto church for certain. This was the beginning of the church which was in Jerusalem. It also was the beginning of the universal church. Christ can add members to the church any way He wants to. And we can't really dictate to Him how He must do so.Regardless of this, the truth of the universal church still is not effected by anything in Acts.In fact the expression "the church THROUGHOUT the whole of Judea and Samaria had peace" (Acts 9:31) must refer to the universal aspect of the church. For church is mentioned here in the singular tense yet many localities must be included in Judea and Samaria. I have presented evidence. AND I might add that you admitting that their MIGHT be is an improvement over insisting as you did before that it did not exist. To be His Bride is our blessed hope.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi jaywill, Words have meanings. Those meanings are not what you want to make them up to be.You need to find a good Greek Lexicon and look up the Greek word for Church and find out what a church is as you don't have the foggiest idea.The English transliteration is ekklsia.Find the meaning of that word and you can begin to understand what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, when He said "I will build my "Church".It was not left for someone else to build. So when were these people who had been baptized by John the Baptist get rebaptized?I submit they were saved the same way Abraham was, and were baptized by the one who had the authority to baptize. The one that was sent to prepare the material for Jesus to build His Church out of. Hay I am not the biggest sinner Paul claimed that title I have to settle for second biggest sinner. My Darby says:

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Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone,
Eph 2:21 in whom all [the] building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord;

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This is the original Darby. Which translation there are several done by different individual men.My NIV says:

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Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
Eph 2:21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

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So how does Jesus start this Church. He is already at the right hand of the Father?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I assume you are responding to my last post so I will wait for that. In the meantime let me ask you a simple question in connection with this discussion.what is your point in insisting that there is no universal chruch? I mean you are where you are, I am where I am, Jaywill is where he is, we are all born again, saved, members of the church/kingdom, but we are are all in different locations, but still Gods children through Christ. Are we not, and all the rest of the Christians scattered throught the world, the universal church?I think that is all jaywill is really saying. whats wrong with that, am I missing something. What is the difference and what is your point?Yes the word church can mean a group of people anywhere, for any purpose, but when it refers to Christs church, it would mean HIS at anytime, before during or after Pentecost. But there is a sense in which the church before Pentecost did not include the Gentiles, correct? I think this is Christs meaning when he says I will build my Church. Now and not then it includes both jew and Gentile, correct? Its NOW universal to include all classes of people."There is neither Jew ro Greek, bond or free, male or female, all are one in Christ" This aspect of the Chruch did not exist before Pentecost , correct?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, If Jesus was in the beginning with God and Jesus is God then He has all knowledge. That means He sat at the beginning and viewed the end. Therefore He knows the outcome before the first man was formed from the dust of the ground.If He knows every decision I will ever make does that take away my free will. NoI had an Aunt that was a preacher back in the 50's she always said, "whatever is to be will be even if it never happens". She preached if a person was to be saved they would be no matter what. I told her God knew she would be that stupid and not trust Him for salvation and die and go to hell.Now concerning Judas, did Jesus know he was a devil from the beginning? Yes that is why He chose him.Concerning Peter, did Jesus tell him or anyone else that Peter was a devil? NOSatan is the tempter and Jesus did tell Satan to get behind Him. Peter was allowing Satan to speak through him like the serpent in the garden, although the poor serpent had no choice. Peter did. Didn't Jesus tell the Pharisees they were of their father the devil.
Well according to Jesus Judas was of his father the devil. That makes him a devil.Peter was of his Father, God thus Peter was a saint. According to Luke 22:3 Satan entered Judas and he went and conspired with the chief priest to betray Jesus. After he had done Satans bidding Satan left him to himself. God's chosen people does not equal a chosen child of God.How do we justify Jesus telling the most religious people of His day they were of their father the devil? What semantics.Judas was one of the original 12 Apostles Jesus sat in the Church. Jesus chose Judas and made him an apostle. Paul said God sat them in the Church.
I kinda think that made him a member of the church.
The Church being a called out assembly, to be fishers of men.He carried the money bag so I think that makes him the treasurer. It doesn't say anything about baptism either.What does Jesus say? Does your Bible have verse 6 in it? You do know the Bible is it's own best interpreter don't you?Nicodemus understood what Jesus meant. He provided the spices for the body of Jesus.There are two kinds of birth.A water birth which is a fleshly birth. Apparently you never had kids and heard the dreaded news in the middle of the night "my water has just broke".There is a spiritual birth man's spirit is born of the Holy Spirit and sealed until the day of redemption. You stretching what they said a little aren't you?They actually said: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"So lets see they heard the gospel, they believed John 3:18 says they are condemned no longer.They then asked what they should do. Peter says you need to repent and be baptized with reference to the remission of your sins. The Greek language and construction does not support in order to receive remission of sins. The verses you are refering to supplies everything you need to become a born again child of God.They do not obtain everything you need to be a born again obedient child of God.Jesus sat the example and said come follow me.He was the Son of God.He went to John the Baptist who had authority to baptize and was baptized by him in the river Jordan.So if we are going to follow Jesus we have to be a child of God first.Then we need to present ourselves to the one who has the authority to baptize. That order was given to the Church prior to Pentecost. The Church is to make disciples (believers) then baptize them, then teach them the all things that He commanded.That is God's order any other order is out of order.But whoa. That is just the beginning.Jesus tells us in John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"There is no option in that statement. If we are His sheep we will follow Him.If someone claims to be a sheep and goes about butting with his own head he is nothing but a goat. If we did not have his works to look at we could not know whether he did or did not believe God.That is the reason James said:

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Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

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God knows if a man has faith whether he has works or not. But man can only know you have faith when he sees your works.We are justified before God by faith. We are justified before man by works.There will be no flesh justified before God by works.The best part of that is God will reward us for the works we do. Baptism is an ordinance given to the Church. The Church is to baptize believers, disciples, followers.Baptism is the announcement of our new beginning in a lifelong journey of serving Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master.Just as the personal ministry of Jesus was announced and begun at his Baptism. So a statement Paul made: We are His children by faith.Those who have been baptized with reference to Christ have put on the righteousness of Christ.God is no respector of persons or sex. An earthly father and son yes.If man gains eternal life through works he can lose it by stopping work.God has a gift He has offered to mankind. It is a free full pardon and sets mankind free from the bondage the first man sold man into when he disobeyed God. It also cover any personal sin we have ever committed or will commit. That is what grace is. Unmerited favor.I don't deserve eternal life but God made a way I could have eternal life. I can't buy it. I can't earn it. I can't steal it. I can only receive it.But when I got it my life changed. My want to changed.I have seen too many people walk the aisle, get dunked in a pool of water and never see any change.When a person becomes a sheep, he is a sheep, and sheep follow their Master where ever He goes, no questions asked and no grumbling about the journey. If the Master jumps off a cliff the sheep will follow until the last one has gone over the cleft. I ask again, when did Jesus become the Son of God?Was it before His baptism or after His baptism?If we can not be born again as John says in John 3:16-18 how can we follow Jesus example?Why is the Church ordered to make disciples (believers and then baptize them and then teach them in that order?You see I believe all should be done but in the proper order. I also believe any order not ordered by Jesus is out of order. You expect me to remember a private conversation that took place back in January and February of 09?
Have you forgot I am 70 now. I got my 3 score and ten in looks like I didn't do a good enough job. Got to stick around a while and make up for all that lost time when I was goofing off.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi EMA, I am a litteralist and I can't get away from it.The Greek word transliterated ekklsia translated Church means:1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assemblya) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberatingAny group of people meeting for a specific reason is a church. Such as the PTA, Lyons club etc.So to apply to the church Jesus started it would have to be modified to cover a NT Church.A scriptural NT Church is a called out assembly of scripturally baptized believers for a specific reason.Where do I get these modifications?The Head of the Church was baptized by John the Baptist who had the authority to baptize.
The apostles were baptized by John the Baptist.
John required people to show proof of repentance as he was preparing the material for Jesus to use to build the Church with.Jesus when He came out of the desert and was finished with Satan was walking by the Sea of Galilee and called Peter and Andrew to come follow Him. For the specific reason of fishing for men.That was the first called out assembly. Thus Jesus began His church with two men who were already believers who had been baptized by John.
As Jesus journeyed He called James and John and added them to the Church, now there was 5.The Church has had it's existence from Jesus calling the first two apostles to be fishers of men. Sorry that does not fit the definition of a Church.Now if you two jokers will get on a plane and fly down to Florida and meet up with me we can have some fellowship discuss these things in person that would fit the definition of a Church.Many people have this misconception that when a person is born again they are automatically a member of the Church. That is a Catholic Church teaching period, and those that come out of her.A person is born into God's family. no baptism required. God's family has no bastard children in it. Everyone is born of the Holy Spirit.The Churches are filled with people who are not born again. There is no way we can know if a person is truly born again or not. If they come and make a profession and we baptize them we have to accept them into our assembly.That is the reason Paul spent so much time admonishing the Church's to be fruit inspectors and weed out those who they can determine are goats. He taught how to deal with a brother that had drifted away from service for God.My Church is one of the strictest in the World. My people believe the Bible and practice it daily.I could leave tomorrow and they would never miss a beat as there are several men that could take over with no problem.I believe the Church has to be a chaste virgin to be a part of the Bride of Christ. I think that is the definition given for her. If a Church is not doing what she is supposed to be doing she can have her candlestick removed as the Churches in Revelation were told.The only thing the Church has that could be removed would be her Brideship.I intend to be in the Bride of Christ and live in the New Jerusalem next door to my Big Brother Jesus. I have already got a glimpse of it and can't wait to get home.Back to the universal Church that don't exist.When Jesus comes in the air as a thief in the night all those who are born again washed in the blood of the Lamb with their wicks all trimmed and everything in order ready to meet Him will be caught up in the air to ever be with the Lord.Those who are not ready with the wicks all trimmed and all things in order will not make the Marriage Supper and will lose rewards.That called out assembly which is called out to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb constitute the Bride of Christ. Hope to see you there.That assembly fits the definition of a Church.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

You two jokers, thats funny. I use to live in Florida when I was a child, I have very fond memories of that state. The trees, the sand, the beaches, I love to surf fish, that is some of the most fun fishing you can ever do, you never know what you are going to pull in from that vast ocean, using that gigantic pole.I was going to respond to both of your posts in detail, but I think that is not necessary, except to respond to your position on Baptism.
As Iread your post there was a much larger issue that kept jumping out at me and that issue is that you are wasting your valuable time arguing MINOR points with me, when you should and as you have been using that vast amounts of knowlegde battling those that are in opposition to God and his word, specifically here on this website.You have a great gift for discussion and debate and it should be focused in the right direction. you have vasts amounts of knowledge both in and out of the scriptures, over a vast areas of topics. Your knowledge you have accumulated over 70 plus years in nothing short of impressive.I do believe your position on the plan of salvation and specifically Baptism for the remission of sins and its place in the plan is misdirected. The plan you set out is not the one taught in Acts chapter 2. The simple plan in that book is belief, repentance, Baptism, then the remission of sins, its to easy to miss.Yes I am aware Baptism can be used as a symbol of salvation but that is not all that Baptism is as the simple words by Peter indicate.I am also aware that the greek word EIS can be used to mean, "Because of" instead of "In order to obtain". The context here would also match the statement by Jesus, when he stated:"This is the blood of my covenant, which is shed for many for the remmision of sins"Jesus did not shed his blood "because of" sins already being forgiven, but "in order that" sins may be forgiven.The command for Baptism is to easy to miss in to many places, as In Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 10:48. Peter then specifies what the exact nature and purpose is of its function of Gods plan of salvation, in Acts chapter 2.If Belief and acceptance was all that was necessary in that instance, Peter would not have follwed up with the specific instructions he did.We literally go into the water an old man and are a new creature in Christ when we come up outof the water. Its Gods plan for where we reach the blood of Christ."Therefore we are buried with Christ in Baptism, that like was rasied from the dead, we also rise, TO WALK A NEWNESS OF LIFE" Romans chapter 6.We go into the water a sinful man and come out with our robes washed in the blodd of the lamb.When Paul was instructed by Ananias on what to do, Saul already believed in Christ and had accepted him, he was then told WHAT ELSE TO DO. "Why do you wait (tarriest thou), arise be Baptized and wash away your sins".Yes Baptism can be used as a symbol, but there are to many examples in the book of Acts that make it aboundantly clear that it is Gods plan as a part of the plan of salvation. its to easy to miss.yes ther are instances in the scriptures where the author uses the word faith to ENCOMPASS all that God requires in a single word. However, as I explained before, FAITH is used as a synecdoche, meaning a part the whole, or whole for the part.Faith is an encompassing word to demonstrate the overall attitude that should be directed twords God. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteouness. there were however, many specfic things that God required of him to MAKE that faith or belief justified, it was not simply a mental exercise.Faith is only real and alive if it is DEMONSTRATED IN OBEDIENCE to what God requires after an initial belief in a mental exercise. these are not works, but obedience because of an active faithYes, "By grace you are SAVED through FAITH, that not of yourself it is a gift of God" The faith has to be exercised in OBEDIENCE to whatever commands God requires in that connection."Why tarriest thou, arise and be Baptized and wash away you sins"
Wash away you sins, not with water but with t he blood of Christ, though this is where the Apostle Peter and Paul through inspiration indicate we contact that blood. belief is not enough accorfding to the scriptures.I simply wanted to make this point and I will let yourself and jaywill discuss the other issues.My imput would be to not waste to much time on minor matters, you have a greater mission. But remember your a christian first.You two jokers, thats funnyEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

The very profound things spoken of in the Bible are often spoken in many ways. For instance the church in Ephesians is taught in more than just one way.She is the assembly, the houshold, the family, the new man, the Body, the temple, the habitation of God, the corporte warrior with the whole armor of God. She is also the wife and the POEMA or "masterpiece".Ephesians is very rich in its explanation of what the church is. I think it is seen by revelation and too many Christians under appreciate the significance of the church. You should not assume that I have not studied a Greek lexicon. And and as for me not having the foggiest idea about the church? Well, you are welcomed to believe this but I probably could keep you occupied reading my posts on this one subject for months.Of course I still need to see much more, as you do also. Do you think that I don't know that? Actually, the word in Greek is also used to discribe a mob of unruly people in the book of Acts. So one has to be careful to understand what the NT is teaching. I am a part of the church that He is building. And I too am building with Him.He builds indirectly through the members of His body who build. This is why Paul said: "So also you, since you are zealous of spirits, seek that you may excel for the building up of the church." (1 Cor. 14:12)You see? I seek too to excel for the building up of the church. The Body builds itself up in love, you know? (Eph. 4:16).Love builds up. Knowledge puff up. I have long been under the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, "unto the building up of the Body of Christ." (Eph.4:12)Would you like me to share more with you about how we have been trained to build up the church the Body of Christ ? I have a lot to share on that subject. As I wrote above, Christ said He would build His church. He does so through the members of the Body who build up the Body in love. "And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, unto the BUILDING UP of the Body of Christ ... (Eph. 4:11,12).Christ prophesied that He would build His church, yet He does so in the Body building up ITSELF in love. By our holding to the living Person of Christ, the Head, and by GROWING in His spiritual life, we can CAUSE the growth of the Body, the church: I don't know. Why does it matter ?
I recall some were re-baptized in Acts 19:1-7.I think my main point is that Christ dispensing His life into man makes them born of God and therefore qualified to be members of His Body. No one without the life of Christ is a member of His Body.And we must remember that God places the members in the Body as it pleases Him. It is not as it pleases you or me. It is as it pleases Him and as He wills. (1 Cor. 12:18)Christ brought the church into existence by dispensing His Spirit into His believers.I would you advize you to single out the particular problem that you would like to address. I think you are assuming that I take positions which upon closer examination clarification could be made. I don't know for sure.But anyway, the universal church is a reality. This is not to say that all what we might call "Christiandom" is exactly equal to the church.Anyway, beware of trying to fight one heresy with another. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, Belief first. I agree
Repentance is brought about by belief. I agree
Baptism as a result of those two in first step to follow Jesus. They heard the gospel. Peter preached a pretty hard sermon. The Holy Spirit convicted them to the point they accepted what Peter had said.
They were like Saul on the road to Damascus when he met Jesus and said, "Lord what would you have me to do".They asked Peter what they should do. Peter was beside himself. His first real evangalistic sermon and all this response.

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Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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Now if they were not born again children of God prior to being baptized John lied when he said: Jesus lied when He said: The thief was not baptized therefore he could not be saved and meet Jesus in paradise.Paul lied when he said:

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Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

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Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

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Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

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Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

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Peter lied when he said:

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Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

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Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and his family.

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Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

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While Peter was preaching the Holy Spirit saved them and sealed them until the day of redemption.

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Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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That bunch of Jews was dumbfounded that these gentiles had been given the gift of the Holy Ghost.Peter ask the Church that had traveled with him could any forbid that they be baptized.Peter recognized the Church had the authority to baptize not him.Now either you are mistaken in what Peter said in Acts 2:38 or Jesus, Paul, and Peter lied.Baptism is not necessary to receive the Holy Spirit and be born again.
Baptism was not necessary for Jesus to become a Son of God.
Neither is baptism necessary for us to become a Son of God.In fact if we follow the example Jesus set we must be a son of God before we are a fit subject for baptism.
Baptism is necessary to follow Jesus as He set the example by walking 40 miles to be baptized by John the Baptist who had the authority to baptize.Now if you can shed some light on these above passages please do.One of us in wrong. So it needs to get fixed.My intentions are to be in the Bride of Christ, and to do so I believe we have to be correct not partly correct. At the present time I am teaching a college level course in Defence of the Faith. So these discussions are makeing me study some of the right material.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jaywill,

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Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

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Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

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Mat 4:20 And they straightway left [their] nets, and followed him.

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These two men had heard John the Baptist preach and had been baptized by him. That means they were prepared by John the Baptist for Jesus to use.Does the above calling out of these two men by Jesus to become fishers of men constitute a Church according to the definition of the Greek word ekklsia translated Church?A yes or no answer is sufficient.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes, we may say that constitutes a church of sorts according to EKKLESIA's definition.Now in Matthew 13 Jesus gathers the tares together as one to cast them into a furnace of fire (Matt. 13:30). This means that Christ gathers out the false believers from among the true ones, to separate them and sends them to be damned. Is that not also a church according to your strict definition ?The new covenant church did not come into existence until the new covenant was established in Christ's death and resurrection, which events had not yet taken place when He called the twelve disciples out as a "church" in that sense. The way I teach is that the new covenant church, the New Testament Church was established only after the Lord had shed His blood and risen from the dead accomplishing a full eternal redemption.Your view interesting. But I think I will stick with this understanding.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

ICANT none of the people in these verses are lying about anything,they are all saying the samething, but from a different perspective. Some of the writers at times are speaking of salvation in a general sense, that is by making statements like, He that believeth is not condemened, etc. here the word belief is being used in a general sense, in the form of a synecdoche a figure of speech, meaning a part for the whole.later in the same book by the same author he quotes jesus by saying and demonstrating how one is born again and believes in christ by stating, "One must be born of water and the Spirit to be born again"Now watch this, we now have more information in a specific sense how we are to believe and obey.Later the Apostles, specifically Peter, narrows down even further what the characteristics are of belief or faith in Christ by stating, repent and be baptized in conjuntion with your overall belief or faith.Yes ICANT there are many verses that speak of belief and faith in a general sense, but we must take and FOLLOW all the examples by the Apostles, especially in thier specifics. we cant pick and choose.Now watch, if baptism is not a requirement before we recieve remission of sins, as indicated in Acts chapter 2, then it would follow that I can also recieve the remission of sins without repenting of my sins, or recieve it before I repent.These people had not repented of thier sins and had not been baptized, for, if repentance is simply a part of belief as in the verse, Peter would have not addressed and recognized it. They had not, they had only NOW, had basic knowledge of JesusChrist, which they believed in the form of aquired knowledge.Peter now through inspiration of the Holy Spirit recognized the necessity of two more things, the necessity of them understanding they needed to repent of past sins, which separated them from God and to follow the specific command of Jesus through his Apostles to be Baptized as well. TWO MORE things, repent and be baptizedIn acts chapter 2:38, there are two commands that form a coodinating conjunction, in other words you cant have one without the other, Repent and be baptized. If they recieved remission of sins before these two requirements, then it would follow they recieved remission of sins before they repented.They were pricked in thier hearts at the hearing of JesusChrist plight and what they had done to him. There was still more to be done with regard to thier transformation. for them to recognize thier own sins that seperated them from God, this is what he is being specific about when he speaks of repentance. the already recognized thier mistake in crucifying the son of God, now they needed to be aware of thier entire life of sins that seperated them from God. hence the Apostle extends the command of repentance to cover this area and then shows them how to get rid of these sins entirly by obedience to the command of Baptism FOR the remission of sinsYes the Holy Spirit fell on these gentiles and the Christ made a special appearance to Saul, both of which neither indicate that they were saved before following Gods commands. In both these instances they were still required to follow commands that are required by all anywhere to recieve remission of sins.I have no contention with the fact that salvation is often used in a general sense to represent all that involved in the specifics. The book of acts makes it abundantly clear that Baptism was a very specific and immediate action and command, taken by the Apostles and that, it is for the remission of sins.When the Apostle or Apostles say Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, it should not be understood, that they did not NOT practice that which was commanded by Christ. Simply because in certain situations it is not mentioned specifically, there is no reason to believe it was not an overall practice. Here is an exampleIn Acts 8, Phillip preaches Christ to the Ethiopian but there is no mention of him specifically talking about baptism, but he must have taught it, as a command and immediate action. For the Ethiopian says, "here is water what henders me from being baptized"now we see the command and urgency of its necessity by indirect implication. this, in conjunction with what and how Peter describes its function, makes it abundantly clear of its IMPORTANCE in the plan of salvation and its SPECIFIC purpose You cannot be a fit subject before God without the remission of sins and he spoke through his inspired Apostle and Apostles to demonstrate how that is accomplished.The thief on the cross was still under the old system or the Old Law. Besides this, Jesus was God and he said in a certain place:These signs are accomplished that you may know that the Son of Man has power to forgive sins while he is on the earth. No Apostle had this specific power to forgive sins directly, outside of christ's specific authority, as when he sent them out. After this they could only make it KNOWN and available through a system Christ left in place after his departure. It is SPECIFIED in no uncertain terms in Acts Chapter 2. Notice that after christs death and ressurection and ascension, no Apostle said, I absolve your sins as did Christ. They preached a message of how that was now accomplished through repentence and baptismAfter his depature the New Covenant he established through his Apostles would take affect. Belief, repentance and Baptism for the remission of sins, was that system, that will be in place until his return. Not according to what is commanded by Christ, commanded and praticed by the Apostles, not according to the examples in the NT and taught in no uncertain terms in Acts chapter 2Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

repentance, confession and baptism are not mentioned in this verse, should I conclude they are not necessary because they are not mentioned. according to your logic, I dont need them, I can have remission of sins before I repent and or confess, if i simply believe.James says the devils BELIEVE but i bet they are not savedEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.