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Author Topic:   Paul speaking only for himself (a question, not a debate)
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 16 (261289)
11-19-2005 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Nighttrain
11-19-2005 3:42 AM


Re: "not a debate"
Welcome,Iblis. And as spin-doctor for the Romans(authorities), Paul had no trouble inserting civil instructions. No wonder wherever he went where the Romans had control, he was accommodated with the appointed heads: Gallio at Corinth,Claudias Lysias at Jerusalem,Festus at Caesarea,Publius at Melita, Julius on the way to Rome. Knowing Titus`s mistress, Bernice, must have come in handy,too.
Do you know why Paul had such power and connections with Rome ?
His brother (Rufus Pudens, Romans 16) was a Senator, Paul himself was a Roman citizen. The Romans letter was addressed to the Church at Rome: which was the household of the conquered British-Seleurian king Caradoc, known as Caractacus. This vanquished chief was given in-house parole by the Roman senate instead of a death sentence as recorded by Tacitis. His daughter, Gladys (not to be confused with his wife of the same name) was adopted by the Emperor and he changed her name to Claudia. She married Rufus Pudens. While under subjugation, Caradoc was converted.
It is to THIS household....Paul wrote "...to all that be at Rome".
Paul was a doulos/slave of Christ - not Rome, as is witnessed by his martyrdom their at the hands of the Romans.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Nighttrain, posted 11-19-2005 3:42 AM Nighttrain has replied

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 Message 9 by Nighttrain, posted 11-19-2005 5:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3070 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 13 of 16 (261601)
11-20-2005 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
11-19-2005 6:41 PM


Re: How did he die?
No one even knows for sure how Paul died.
Agreed.
There's a tradition that he died in prison,
Never heard of this, not saying it doesn't exist.
and another tradition that he was beheaded.
The key word here is "tradition". 2Timothy has Paul saying his death is eminent. A "tradition" is something that the generation in question accepted as fact, followed by every successive generation. A "legend" is a story that the generation in question rejected as fact BUT later re-appeared in other generations. The tradition of Paul's beheading is a tradition accepted by multiple quarters of christendom, from the British church, Rome, Jerusalem, and of course Antioch. These are compelling lines of evidence SINCE, in the 1st century, NO modern communication abilities existed. Such a "tale" would have never made it past Rome. The tradition of Paul's beheading is a fact, although Dr. Scott says there is ample evidence it actually came well after 2Timothy - that being a false alarm.
Brian: are truth and accuracy synonymous ?
But, there is no external contemporary evidence of Paul's death. Having said that, there is no external evidence of any apostle's death either.
By traditions and legends there is.
While I degraded "legends" above; all are NOT untrue. If the legend corresponds with unconnected facts then historians have a basis.
Legend says Thomas was martyred near Madras, India. The legend is supported by the fact that there is an ancient church at Mt. St. Thomas, India. The fact that we are talking INDIA shows there can be no bias since that land is ruled by non-christians.
In addition, there exists NOT ONE shred of evidence contradicting any martyrdom legend or tradition. If the accounts are not true THEN surely history would betray and cough up something - yet nothing, zero, zip.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 11-19-2005 6:41 PM Brian has not replied

  
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