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Author Topic:   Divinity of Jesus
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 236 of 517 (514671)
07-10-2009 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Peg
07-10-2009 8:54 AM


The trinity doctrine developed in christianity well after it was established. The important thing to know about its development is that it didnt come from the bible writers, nor did it come from Jesus and none of the Hebrew writers presented the idea of a triune God either.
This viewpoint come from one who does not believe in what the Bible declares to be true concerning what happened on Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at God the Father's right hand as Lord as declared by Peter in Acts 2,
32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: `THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Peg, posted 07-10-2009 8:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 2:01 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 264 of 517 (514842)
07-13-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Peg
07-12-2009 2:01 AM


Father, Son and Spirit are clearly shown in Acts 2:32-38 for those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to those who are being drawn to salvation in Christ Jesus. Since Jesus has been made both Lord and Christ as a result of what happened at Pentecost in Acts 2, let's look at what happened in Acts 13:
32 "And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, `YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'
34 "As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: `I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.'
35 "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, `YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.'
When Jesus declared in John 3:16 that "God so loved the world that He gave gave His only begotten Son," Jesus was referring to His resurrection, not to His incarnation birth.
When one rejects the incarnation deity of Jesus, His atoning death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father as Lord, then one is left with nothing but a false gospel, as are the Jehovah's Witnesses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Peg, posted 07-12-2009 2:01 AM Peg has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 268 of 517 (514875)
07-13-2009 4:53 PM


The Divinity of Jesus
All sin is first and formost sin against a righteous and holy God. We as humans can forgive others when they sin against us, but that does not relieve sinners of their sin before God. Sin requires faith, repentance and confession to God. Jesus showed in these verses in Luke 5 that He had power on earth to forgive sin:
20 Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"
22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, "Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
23 "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, `Get up and walk'?
24 "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home."
25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 273 of 517 (514973)
07-14-2009 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Peg
07-13-2009 9:28 PM


Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
As clear as can be stated, Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult. As such they do not believe in historic Christianity as revealed by Jesus Christ and given to His apostles 2000 years ago. Their beliefs developed only in the late 1800's by Charles Taze Russell. JW's believe Jesus Christ is a brother of Satan, both being created angels. According to JW's, Jesus Christ in not Lord God who now sits at the right hand of God the Father (Acts 2:32-36), and they are ONE (John 10:30).
Basic Beliefs:
God
JWs deny the Trinity.
A less important point - Jehovah's Witnesses claim God's only true and correct name is "Jehovah" - which actually doesn't appear in the Bible. It comes from adding the vowels from "Adonai" (Hebrew for "Lord") to "YHWH." This was first done in AD1270 by a Roman Catholic monk (thanks, Raymundus) - apparently JW's own "Aid" book admits this on pages 884 & 885.
Jesus Christ
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael, and that he is the first being created by God. They believe He was not bodily resurrected, and that He returned invisibly to Earth in 1914.
The Holy Spirit
JWs believe that the Holy Spirit is just a force, like electricity.
Salvation
They believe that salvation is through good works and by being a Jehovah's Witness.
Bible
The Watchtower teaches that the Bible is not properly understandable without the Watchtower's materials. According to them their own New World Translation (NWT) Bible is the only true version.
New Zealand Cults, Sects, Religions, Christian Organisations, and other groups
If any here at the EVC Forum want to learn the truth of the Bible and who Jesus Christ really is, and God's salvation that is found only in Him, you will not do so from a Jehovah Witness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Peg, posted 07-13-2009 9:28 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 2:05 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 275 of 517 (515010)
07-14-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Peg
07-14-2009 5:54 AM


Re: Trinity
The best explanation of "what does it mean that Jesus was the Word" is found in John 1,
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John, who was inspired by the Spirit of God to write these verses, reveals that before Jesus became flesh to accomplish His purpose of redeeming man from his sin, He was with God the Father as the Word of God, the Word was God, and all things in creation came into being through Him. This is what historic Christianity has believed for 2000 years. Cults, such as the JW's, try to say otherwise, but that is what cults do. They distort the true revelation of who Jesus is, downgrading Him to a created being.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Peg, posted 07-14-2009 5:54 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 7:49 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 284 of 517 (515110)
07-15-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Peg
07-15-2009 2:05 AM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
The bottom line is that a cult like Jehovah Witnesses does not have the right to explain to others on this forum what the Bible says and means concerning the divinity of Jesus. JW's cannot hear what the Spirit is saying to sinners who are being drawn to our Lord Jesus Christ, nor can they take the things of Jesus and understand them (John 16:13-15). Jesus gave this advice to blind guides,
Mt 15:14 - "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
Maybe you would fit better in one of your JW forums, or in a forum for unbelievers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Peg, posted 07-15-2009 2:05 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 12:59 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 287 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 1:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 292 of 517 (515123)
07-15-2009 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Rahvin
07-15-2009 12:59 PM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
Precisely who made you arbiter of who does or does not have the "right" to interpret the Bible?
Peg has every bit as much of a right to post here as you or I do, on whatever topic she pleases - that is, we all have those privileges as granted by Percy, the owner of the forum.
Everyone has the right to post here as much as they like. What I said was "Jehovah Witnesses does not have the right to explain to others on this forum what the Bible says and means concerning the divinity of Jesus." This is because they do not believe in the divivity of Jesus, nor have they entered into a relationship with Him by being "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7. This is necessary to be able to take the things of Jesus and understand them (John 16:13-15).
Unbelievers don't like this because they think they can read and understand the Bible just like they would read and understand a history book or a fiction book.
Who made me the arbiter of who does or does not have the "right" to interpret the Bible? The Lord Jesus does for those who are "born again" by the Spirit of God, that's who.
Edited by John 10:10, : added word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 12:59 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 2:47 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 293 of 517 (515124)
07-15-2009 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Brian
07-15-2009 1:05 PM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
Really John 10:10, you are one of the least Christ-like people I have ever had read.
JW's do not believe in the divinity of Jesus. If you do, why do you think it's OK for someone to explain to others what the Bible means when they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus and that He is Lord?
Yes, I am a Christian, and you are not the Pope.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Brian, posted 07-15-2009 1:05 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 4:44 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 308 by Brian, posted 07-16-2009 6:38 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 298 of 517 (515141)
07-15-2009 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Rahvin
07-15-2009 2:47 PM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
So you believe. So you interpret. As an unbeliever, why should I believe you over Peg? You're claiming that anyone who does not hold the same beliefs you hold regarding the Bible has no right to explain Biblical interpretation. Why is your belief correct, and others are wrong?
100% of true Christians since the time of Christ believe that Jesus is divine, is Lord, and one must be "born again" by the Spirit of God to see and enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:3-7). Those that do not may think they are Christians, but according to Jesus' words, they are not. The only work man can do to enter into the kingdom of God is to believe in Him whom God has sent to provide salvation for man (John 6:28-29). Your arguments are against the words of the Lord Jesus, not with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 2:47 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 7:29 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 317 of 517 (515205)
07-16-2009 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Rahvin
07-15-2009 7:29 PM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
The issue here is that you're condemning Peg for putting forth what she understands the Bible to say based on what you understand the Bible to say. If you want to assert that Jesus is divine, support it with the Bible and engage Peg in debate. Accusing Peg of belonging to a cult and not being a "true Christian" is nothing more than an ad hominem attack - you're attacking Peg personally, not refuting her position.
The problem with your reply is that you don't believe the Bible is God's truth. When Scripture is given that reveals the divinity of Jesus, it is ignored, such as John 1:1-14, John 10:30 and Phil 2:5-11.
These verses also confirm Acts 2:32-38,
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
One can be a Christian in name, but to be a true Christian in relationship, one must be "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7. When one does this, one enters into relationship with the Lord Jesus as revealed in Heb 1:1-4.
If others want to believe in a Jesus who is the brother of Satan, that is your choice. But a Jesus who is the brother of Satan can never forgive you of your sins, nor does he sit at the right hand of God the Father as Lord.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Rahvin, posted 07-15-2009 7:29 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 319 of 517 (515207)
07-16-2009 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Peg
07-16-2009 4:44 AM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
However, i must defend myself here...I have never denied the divinity of Jesus. 'The word was divine' says John 1:1
Sure, i dont believe he is Jehovah, but that does not mean I do not believe he is of divine origin.
If you believe Jesus is not a created being, has always existed in the eternal Godhead, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as Lord, then you are the first JW I know that believes as you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 4:44 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jaywill, posted 07-16-2009 8:18 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 326 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 9:29 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 321 of 517 (515209)
07-16-2009 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Brian
07-16-2009 6:38 AM


Re: You are no Christian John
You may think you are John but you aren't. You have too much hate in you, and you even have a go at people without even knowing what their faith teaches.
Working in a Catholic School and knowing what it really means to be a Christian are two different things.
A Christian is one who speaks the truth in love to sinners who are lost and separated from God. If you perceive this as hate, maybe it's because you think there is no God, or that there is no such thing as being lost and separated from God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Brian, posted 07-16-2009 6:38 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Brian, posted 07-18-2009 8:21 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 322 of 517 (515210)
07-16-2009 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by jaywill
07-16-2009 8:18 AM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jaywill,
You must understand that you are speaking mostly to unbelievers on this forum. As such, unbelievers love to debate what they think the Bible says. If they don't like what the Bible says, then they make up their own Bible, as do the JW's.
Yes, Christ intered into the creation He made and became as a man. The human part of Christ came from His mother Mary, but the divine part always existed in the Godhead and became as a man, was not created. Words and their meaning are very important, and what cults do is take the words of the Bible and give them different meanings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jaywill, posted 07-16-2009 8:18 AM jaywill has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 329 of 517 (515242)
07-16-2009 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Peg
07-16-2009 7:49 AM


Re: Trinity
you see, this is where it gets too complicated for me...
how can Jesus be 'with' God and 'be' God at the same time?
This is why God is God and we are not. The GOD WHO IS has chosen reveal Himself to man in this manner thru the Old Covenant and New Covenant relationship as written by men of God inspired by God's Spirit to write Bible.
How can Jesus be "with God" and "be God at the same time?" Because not only does Jesus declare this of Himself in the Bible, those inspired by God's Spirit declared this as well. Now you have two choices:
(1) Either the Bible is true that declares this, and one finds out that it's true by repenting of one's sins, accepting this as God's truth, and then entering into the fulness of all that this gospel of Christ means for a "born again" Believer, or
(2) one rejects this truth, or re-writes another gospel of Christ to say that Christ is a created being. The JW's have chosen the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 7:49 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Rahvin, posted 07-16-2009 2:58 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3023 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 331 of 517 (515244)
07-16-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Peg
07-16-2009 9:29 AM


Re: Jehovah Witnesses are a Christian cult
a divine being does not mean that the being was never created.
What does 'divine' mean to you?
There are only two things that exist:
(1) Created things, such as the heavens and the earth, plants and animals that can reproduce, and angels (both good and bad), and
(2) Non-created things, which only includes the eternal God - who was, who is, and is to come in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
When Christ returns, 1 Cor 15 will come to pass,
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 9:29 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Peg, posted 07-16-2009 11:26 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
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