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Author Topic:   Where does literalism end and interpretation begin?
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 76 of 96 (293473)
03-08-2006 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
03-08-2006 6:55 PM



Christians obey all the ten commandments and loving God is the highest of them all.

Paul was God's instrument, as inspired by God as any of the OT prophets and no believer will ever pit Paul against God. All of Paul's teachings came from God.

That is debateable. Many non-christians (and some who claim they are christians) see the concept of the trinity as violating the first commandment.


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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2283 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 77 of 96 (293495)
03-08-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
03-08-2006 6:55 PM


Christians obey all the ten commandments and loving God is the highest of them all.

But the 10 commendments arn't about loving god they are about worshipping him and obaying him in all things

Paul was God's instrument, as inspired by God as any of the OT prophets and no believer will ever pit Paul against God. All of Paul's teachings came from God.

thats because you are a believer in paul's writings, its all a matter of degree, anyone can say they are god inspired.
I'm talking history here, the fact that paul was the person that preached to gentiles who would not follow the jewish law, and we don't follow it shows it must have been changed. it had nothing to do with being fair to someones beliefs. they condemmed anyone who worshiped idols and things like thing.

i suppose this was a bad idea to ask all this being OT, admin stop me if it is :)


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 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-08-2006 6:55 PM Faith has responded

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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1048
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 78 of 96 (293702)
03-09-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ramoss
03-08-2006 8:50 PM


ramoss writes:

the comment about man being given a wife made out of his side (the hebew could mean either side or rib), does indicate that a man and wife is the ideal.


But doesn't specifically state that Man-Man or Woman-Woman is wrong?

So does something become evil simply because it is not specifically mentioned as Ideal in the bible?
I would have thought it would have been specifically pointed out as in levitican law (which we have learned in message 46 and message 49 was overuled by Paul(and Jesus?))

ramoss writes:

I personally prefer the translation of 'SIDE' instead of 'RIB', because it indicates an equality (side by side) in a marriage, rather than a woman being in a subserviant role.


But other bible passages cleary state that a woman should be subservient.

Another case where "interpretation" can change the meaning?


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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 79 of 96 (293709)
03-09-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
03-08-2006 6:55 PM


Following it literally.
Faith writes:

Christians obey all the ten commandments...

As a practical matter, what must I do to ensure I am obeying #4?

Isn't the Sabbath on Saturday? Does that mean I cannot work on Saturday?


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 Message 73 by Faith, posted 03-08-2006 6:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 03-10-2006 2:46 AM LinearAq has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31821
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 96 (293712)
03-09-2006 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by ReverendDG
03-08-2006 9:43 PM


Christians obey all the ten commandments and loving God is the highest of them all.
========
But the 10 commendments arn't about loving god they are about worshipping him and obaying him in all things

If you love me you will obey me said Jesus. When Jesus boiled the commandments down to loving God and loving neighbor he meant the ten commandments, and the first three are about loving God. That is how this is taught in most Bible studies I've attended.

Paul was God's instrument, as inspired by God as any of the OT prophets and no believer will ever pit Paul against God. All of Paul's teachings came from God.
======
thats because you are a believer in paul's writings, its all a matter of degree, anyone can say they are god inspired.

When that person's writings have been approved by the church over the millennia and canonized and taken as authoritative, this isn't just "anyone" we are talking about.

I'm talking history here, the fact that paul was the person that preached to gentiles who would not follow the jewish law, and we don't follow it shows it must have been changed. it had nothing to do with being fair to someones beliefs. they condemmed anyone who worshiped idols and things like thing.

I can't really follow what you are saying. The only history we have of any of this comes from scripture. Paul is clearly the one who was sent to the Gentiles as the New Testament shows, the book of Acts in particular. The Gentiles didn't refuse to follow the Jewish law at all. Many of them were already proselytes in the synagogues. This had nothing whatever to do with expedience of any kind. The fact is that what Jesus did on the cross and in the resurrection and ascension fulfilled the Law and now we live to Christ and not the Law, as the scripture says.

Sorry if I'm answering an OT topic. I suppose it will end here then.

This message has been edited by Faith, 03-10-2006 02:40 AM


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31821
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 96 (293820)
03-10-2006 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by LinearAq
03-09-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Following it literally.
I'm not going to argue with you about what the Sabbath is, what day and so on, or how it should be observed. I'll leave that to your own understanding, your own conscience. The only point is that it should be observed. Some Christians disagree that this means observing an actual day of the week, understanding that Jesus Himself IS our Sabbath and now all specific times of observance are no longer relevant. This doesn't mean it isn't observed, but only that it is now observed by "walking in the Spirit" and living the rest that is in Christ, who is our Sabbath rest. This too I would leave to the individual conscience.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2283 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 82 of 96 (293821)
03-10-2006 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
03-09-2006 2:45 PM


no its no problem, i might propose a topic on this, i love history and discussing it. but its my fault i shouldn't have started it :)
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 83 of 96 (293965)
03-10-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
03-10-2006 2:46 AM


Re: Following it literally.
I'm not going to argue with you about what the Sabbath is, what day and so on, or how it should be observed. I'll leave that to your own understanding, your own conscience.

But you're the literalist, not me. A little clarity on how you follow this commandment is very much on topic from my point of view. You said "all Christians" follow the Ten Commandments. If you don't use a particular day as the Sabbath, then how you determined why you don't have to could give us some insight into the limits of your literalism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 03-10-2006 2:46 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 85 by Faith, posted 03-10-2006 12:14 PM LinearAq has responded

    
Murphy
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 96 (293974)
03-10-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by LinearAq
03-10-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Following it literally.
The 7th day depends on what the 1st day is. If Monday is #1 then Sunday is #7. If Sunday is #1 then Saturday is #7. None of that is really relevant. What is relevant is the day one accepts as the Sabbath and what that person does on the Sabbath.
This has been an interesting thread to read. Everything we say or read is interpreted through the 'filters' of our experiences and knowledge. I think that is why Christ said we must be like children. Children don't have those 'filters' and accept almost everything as written or stated. Adults tend to apply too many worldly concepts to their input.
Think of what the word 'gay' means in today's society, and what it meant 50 years ago... or a thousand years ago. The Bible MUST be interpreted, even by literalists, so as to understand what was meant at the time it was written. If 'heart' at that time meant 'self' or 'feelings', then it doesn't matter what 'heart' means today.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31821
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 96 (293980)
03-10-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by LinearAq
03-10-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Following it literally.
I'm torn between observing a Sunday Sabbath and the view that Jesus is our Sabbath so that all specific observances are irrelevant. It's not a comfortable place to be. I'd like to get it settled in my mind once and for all. I can respect all the interpretations of Sabbath observance pretty much, even Saturday observance although I believe there is much less support for that than the other interpretations.

I don't split this issue in terms of "literal" and for the most part I think that word is wrongly used in this thread. Too literal perhaps.

This message has been edited by Faith, 03-10-2006 12:16 PM


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31821
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 96 (293983)
03-10-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Murphy
03-10-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Following it literally.
The 7th day depends on what the 1st day is. If Monday is #1 then Sunday is #7. If Sunday is #1 then Saturday is #7.

The early church met for worship on the FIRST day of the week, the "Lord's Day" which was the day of Jesus' resurrection; and this has been the standard practice since then, which is a good hint that the Sabbath of the seventh day was considered to be no longer in force.


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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 87 of 96 (293986)
03-10-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Murphy
03-10-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Following it literally.
Murphy writes:

The 7th day depends on what the 1st day is. If Monday is #1 then Sunday is #7. If Sunday is #1 then Saturday is #7. None of that is really relevant. What is relevant is the day one accepts as the Sabbath and what that person does on the Sabbath.

I have no idea what your claims to literalism are. However, unless you can provide some Bible quotes showing how the Sabbath became a movable day, I think you are blowing smoke. From what I know, the day is Saturday and has been that since its inception under Moses.

I think that is why Christ said we must be like children. Children don't have those 'filters' and accept almost everything as written or stated. Adults tend to apply too many worldly concepts to their input.
Is this some insight as to your beliefs? Don't you think that this method would lead to some problems with poetic and parable passages being taken as true events? Additionally, this concept seems contradictory to your next paragraph where you state that the meaning of the words when they were written is important. How would a child know this?
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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 88 of 96 (293991)
03-10-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
03-10-2006 12:14 PM


Saturday? Sunday? Thursday? Jesus?
Faith writes:

I'm torn between observing a Sunday Sabbath and the view that Jesus is our Sabbath so that all specific observances are irrelevant. It's not a comfortable place to be.


Uncertainty tends to be quite uncomfortable.

It seems that you are trying to decide between interpretations done by groups or persons other than yourself. What position is most supported by the Bible?

Can you make a Biblical case for any or all of the methods used to "observe" the 4th Commandment?


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LinearAq
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 89 of 96 (293993)
03-10-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
03-10-2006 12:19 PM


Early Church Observances
The early church met for worship on the FIRST day of the week, the "Lord's Day" which was the day of Jesus' resurrection

This makes a certain sense especially if they wanted to distance themselves from the Jewish community. However, I don't see any reference in the Bible about shifting to Sunday. Is the day of worship required to be on the day of the Sabbath?
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31821
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 96 (293994)
03-10-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by LinearAq
03-10-2006 12:34 PM


Re: Saturday? Sunday? Thursday? Jesus?
I haven't done a thorough Biblical study of the Sabbath myself so only have what I've heard preached and seen argued here and there. Biblically the "Lord's Day" of the first day of the week seems foundational to me, and the church did meet on that day and still does. But whether the arguments for this day as the Sabbath itself are valid or not I'm still undecided about. Clearly scripture says "He is our rest" and that strongly argues for a nonspecific day of observance it seems to me. But because greater minds than mine have regarded the Lord's Day as equivalent to the Sabbath for many centuries I hesitate to trust these conclusions I've come to on my own.
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