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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Rahvin
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Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 69 of 327 (506948)
04-30-2009 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by kbertsche
04-30-2009 12:18 PM


Re: Are you going to reply?
Much of the symbolism has a well-defined, objective meaning.
Symbolism, by definition, cannot have objective meaning. It has only what meaning human beings assign to it. Symbols are by their very nature entirely subjective - which is why alternate interpretations abound when "prophesies" make heavy use of symbolic language. What one person things the symbolism means typically changes when real-world circumstances rule out the previous interpretation, and the symbols are assigned a new meaning to keep the "prophesy" accurate.
In this way your so-called "apocalyptic genre" prophesies are similarly just as vague. Revelations may have "well-known" symbols in that many people will agree on given meanings, but those meanings have changed throughout the years. Some people think the "whore of Babylon" is the Catholic Church; others believe it is the US. How many people have been accused of being the Antichrist at this point? How many interpretations of "his number shall be 666" have we seen? Does it refer to bar codes? Ronald Reagan? Nero? Will Jesus literally come in the flesh, or does he return individually for each of us when our own personal worlds end?
If the symbolic language had an "objective meaning," there would be no such reinterpretations. The meanings of symbols change over time because they do not have objective meaning, but rather have only whatever meaning human beings choose to interpret.
Take for instance the Jehovah's Witnesses. They've predicted the end of the world, complete with dates, several times now using the symbolic language of the Bible. In each case, when they're wrong, they "re-interpret" the "prophesies" to give a new date - this time, they are convinced, they have the correct interpretation. The accuracy of the Biblical prophesies themselves are never actually called into question, regardless of how many times they are falsified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by kbertsche, posted 04-30-2009 12:18 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by kbertsche, posted 04-30-2009 2:55 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 74 of 327 (506980)
04-30-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by kbertsche
04-30-2009 2:55 PM


Re: Apocalyptic genre
quote:
Symbolism, by definition, cannot have objective meaning. It has only what meaning human beings assign to it. Symbols are by their very nature entirely subjective - which is why alternate interpretations abound when "prophesies" make heavy use of symbolic language. What one person things the symbolism means typically changes when real-world circumstances rule out the previous interpretation, and the symbols are assigned a new meaning to keep the "prophesy" accurate.
I disagree. As Grant Osborne writes in "The Hermeneutical Spiral" regarding "The interpretation of symbols" (p. 283):
Biblical symbolism is actually a special type of metaphor... The task of the interpreter is to determine which figurative sense the symbol has in the larger context. This means that the true meaning is not to be found in our present situation but rather in the use of that symbol in its ancient setting. This point can hardly be overemphasized in light of the misuse of biblical symbols in many circle today.
Then, quite frankly, you don't understand the meaning of the words "symbol" or "objective."
What meaning does the Christian cross have to an aboriginal Australian whoo's never seen it before? What meaning does the "whore of Babylon" have?
What meaning does any symbol have without human beings to assign that meaning? Do squirrels recognize the meaning of your symbols?
Symbols have no objective meanings - that's what makes them symbols. They are used to represent ideas - and ideas are not objective, but subjective. The same symbol can have completely different meanings, even in Biblical language, whih is the very reasnon we have so many different versions of Christianity.
quote:
In this way your so-called "apocalyptic genre" prophesies are similarly just as vague. Revelations may have "well-known" symbols in that many people will agree on given meanings, but those meanings have changed throughout the years. Some people think the "whore of Babylon" is the Catholic Church; others believe it is the US. How many people have been accused of being the Antichrist at this point? How many interpretations of "his number shall be 666" have we seen? Does it refer to bar codes? Ronald Reagan? Nero? Will Jesus literally come in the flesh, or does he return individually for each of us when our own personal worlds end?
If the symbolic language had an "objective meaning," there would be no such reinterpretations. The meanings of symbols change over time because they do not have objective meaning, but rather have only whatever meaning human beings choose to interpret.
Take for instance the Jehovah's Witnesses. They've predicted the end of the world, complete with dates, several times now using the symbolic language of the Bible. In each case, when they're wrong, they "re-interpret" the "prophesies" to give a new date - this time, they are convinced, they have the correct interpretation. The accuracy of the Biblical prophesies themselves are never actually called into question, regardless of how many times they are falsified.
The fact that many people interpret the symbols incorrectly does NOT mean that they don't have an objective, clear meaning. The problem is that people try to interpret the symbols in isolation from the ancient language and culture.
You clearly don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.
The authors of the various books of the Bible clearly had a specific meaning in mind when they used symbolic language. That doesn't mean that the symbols have an objective meaning - they still have only what meaning human beings assign them. There is no universal, objective meaning to the diadems on the Beast's heads - they mean different things to different people, even amongst Biblical scholars. By definition they cannot have an objective meaning (in fact, the word "meaning" can only be ascribed to subjective ideas).
The fact that a stop sign has a specific meaning to me does not mean that the meaning is objective. It means that I have assigned a subjective meaning to the symbol based on my cultural standards. Certainly the Biblical authors did the same, but this no more gives theuir symbols objective meaning than my interpretation of a stop sign gives stop signs objective meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by kbertsche, posted 04-30-2009 2:55 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by kbertsche, posted 04-30-2009 9:36 PM Rahvin has not replied

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