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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 98 of 327 (507115)
05-01-2009 3:36 PM


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jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 100 of 327 (507134)
05-01-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
05-01-2009 2:00 PM


Re: No mention of Nabonidus
The Book of Daniel jumps right from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar to Belshazzar (Daniel 4 to Daniel 5) - who is repeatedly described as the son of Nebuchadnezzar (have you READ it ?) when he was in fact the son of the usurper Nabonidus.

If we relied on the book of Daniel we'd not known that Nabonidus or the other kings (or that more than 20 years had passed !). Worse, the Nabonidus Chronicle makes it clear that the Persians were known to be attacking, yet there is no mention of it in Daniel 5 - the conquest just happens, out of the blue

The question I would have is, is there a factual error in the book of Daniel's history? It doesn't surprise me that Daniel is not suppose to be an exhaustive account of Babylonian politics. The writer has the things which he wants to highlight about God's purposes.

In doing so, is there a historical error that we know exists in Daniel?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 05-01-2009 2:00 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2009 3:48 AM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 135 of 327 (507367)
05-04-2009 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 9:09 AM


Re: Offspring and eternal life
For many of us Christian disciples it is sufficient that the New Testament tells us that Christ was the referant in Isaiah 53. We regard the New Testament not as some merely human faulty and error prone commentary of the Hebrew Bible, but as the inspired Hebrew canon, the word of God. It is authoritative.

So I would submit first and foremost where the word of God, the New Testament, tells us authoritatively that Christ is prophesied concerning in Isaiah 53 (some examples):

Isaiah 53:1 - Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of Jehovah been revealed ?

John 12:37 -39 - 'But though He [Jesus] had done so many signs before them, they did not believe into Him. That the word of the prophet Isaiah which he said might be fulfilled, "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For this reason they could not believe, BECAUSE AGAIN ISAIAH SAID ..." (my emphasis)

Romans 10:16 - 'But not all have obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes out of hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.'

Isaiah 53:4 - "Surely, He has borne our sicknesses, And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God and afflicted."

Matt. 8:16,17 - ' ... and He casts out the spirits with a word, and all those who were ill He healed,

So that what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "He Himself took away our infirmaties and bore our deseases." '

Isaiah 53:5 - "But He was wounded beause of our transgressions; He was crushed because of our iniquities; The chastening for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we have been healed."

1 Peter 2:23,24 - "Who being reviled did not revile in return, suffering, He [Christ] did not threaten but kept committing all to Him who judges righteously.

Who Himself bore up our sins in His body on the tree, in order that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose bruise you were healed."

Isaiah 53:6 - "We all like sheep have gone astray; Each one of us has turned to his own way. And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall upon Him.

He was oppressed, and it was He who was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter ... so He did not open His mouth."

1 Peter 2:23 - [Christ] Who being reviled did not revile in return ... For you were like sheep being led astray, but you have now come to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls."

Obviously Peter is refering to the Suffering Servant as discribed in conjunction with Isaiah 53, in his thought Jesus Christ the referant of the prophecy.

The Ethopian servant was reading Isaiah 53 when the evangelist Philip assured him that the passage was concerning Jesus Christ:

'And he was ... reading the prophet Isaiah ... And when Philip ran up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, Do you really know the things that you are reading?

And he said, How could I unless someone guides me? And he entreated Philip ... to sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: "As a sheep He was led to slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is dumb, so He does not open His mouth.

In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. Who shall declare His generation? For is life is taken away from the earth."

And the eunuch answered Philip and said, I beseech you, Concerning whom does the porophet say this? Concerning himself or concerning someone else?

And Philip opened his mouth, AND BEGINNING FROM THIS SCRIPTURE HE ANNOUNCED JESUS as the gospel to him." (See Acts 8:26-35 my emphasis)

These few examples show that God was indicating Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53. For the Christian this is authoritative. And there is no need to further defend against skepticism that the Holy Spirit, through Isaiah the prophet, prophesied concerning Jesus in Isaiah 53.

Aside from these explicit references the open hearted can compare quite a few other implicitly harmonious instances in Christ's life and mission, confirming that Isaiah prophesied concerning Him.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:09 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 136 of 327 (507368)
05-04-2009 10:35 AM


You have to use multiple contortions and manipulations to use the writings of the Rabbis to support your contention that Jesus is the fulfillment of this prophecy.

If the New Testament as the oracles of God says that Jesus was refered to in Isaiah 53, that is the end of the matter.

Theodoric believes it or Theodoric doesn't. When an explicit claim is made that some passages refer to Christ which are in the Old Testament, if he doesn't accept that, what can you do for him?

If there is no explicit claim perhaps there is room for some debate. Otherwise, people just choose not to believe what the oracles of God told us.

I think that Joseph is definitely a type of Christ. The New Testament does not say that anywhere. To convince someone that it must be so I would argue about the similarities of what happened to Joseph as compared to what happened to Jesus. And some things yet to happen concerning Jesus, I would add.

With Isaiah 53 there is not need for speculation of this kind. The end of the matter is that the NT said Jesus was the referant.


Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Granny Magda, posted 05-04-2009 11:14 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 3:54 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 327 (507418)
05-04-2009 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Granny Magda
05-04-2009 11:14 AM


Re: Circular Reasoning
And there lies your problem. How do we know that the Bible is "the oracle of God"? Peg suggests that we can place our faith in the Bible because of fulfilled prophecy.

I see.

But I do not see where my "problem" is. I agree with Peg that fulfilled prophecy is one factor which confirms that I am on the right track to believe the Bible.

Of course my concept of prophecy includes more than prediction of great historical events. My view would also include rather personal fulfilled promises of the Bible.

For example the Bible says that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him.

"For everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all whjo call upon Him.

For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:11-13)

Don't regard "saved" there as only refering to eternal redemption. It can be very practical in the daily human life too. I need saving from many things now.

I was experiencing very bad nightmares in my past. Possibly these were due to involvement in occult practices. I don't know for sure. But I know that these were very vivid and evil nightmares.

At there darkest point when I felt I would be crushed or swallowed by something demonic I would, in my sleep, call in my mind on the name of Jesus. Just calling "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" delivered me from those pernicious dreams. The dark and evil things would withdraw and I would awake in great peace.

I experienced that the Lord Jesus was indeed rich to all who called upon Him.

This has by no means been limited to dreamlife. In my waking hours one time I had a toothache so bad that the whole half of my body was tense with trying to contain the pain. It came and went. When the wave of pain came no one could help me. They left the room leaving me to myself.

Because only God could help I would call "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus ..." The pain did not go away. However, a great supporting peace rose up deep within me which enabled me not endure.

I remember being so surprised that I thought to myself "My, a toothache was never so enjoyable." I mean it. It was not the toothache pain which went away. But I found something like a deeper chamber in my being where I could go and hide. There there was a deep enjoyment of God's Spirit. Outside in the outer chamber of my being was a bad toothache pain.

So when I read that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him or that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, I know that I have experienced that. That is fulfilled prophetic utterance to me.

This kind of prophecy lets me know that I am on the right track to believe in the Bible.


If we know that the prophecy has been fulfilled because it says so in the Bible, and we know that the Bible is true because of fulfilled prophecy, we are left with nothing but circular reasoning.

I see now more the subject matter of the thread. I agree.

About circular reasoning:

God says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. So I think there is a kind of circularity in reality which is valid. God is the ground of being and the ultimate fulfillment of history. That's kind of circular.

Secondly, I have a suspicion that most world views of any type have some degree of circular reasoning in them. I think if you examine your own world view I wager that you would discover some circular reasoning with it also. Yet I doubt that you regard it as worthless.

And thirdly, even science is based on philosophical presuppositions which themselves cannot be proved by the scientific method. The scientific method assumes these things as a foundation. Science must assume certain basic things which themselves cannot be proved by scientific experiment. We probably wouldn't say that because of that the scientific method is worthless.

Forthly, the Bible contains a record of people who believed the Scriptures because of the fulfillment of prophecy. As well as it contains instances of people who did not believe it because they failed to see fulfillment of prophecy. I don't think it is wise to say that disbelief because of failure to see fulfillment is valid but belief because of fulfillment is invalid.

So I think both experiences are valid. Prophecy is not the only grounds upon which to believe the Bible. It is an additional means.


Evidence for biblical veracity which itself depends upon belief in the Bible as a prerequisite is worthless.

It has not proved to be "worthless" to millions of us. Then again we do not regard the Bible as only existing to entertain our intellectual curiosity.

Changed lives for the much better has not been "worthless" to quite a few people I know who have placed trust in the Bible as God's revelation.

One of the greatest prophecies in the New Testament is Jesus saying that He would build His church and that the gates of Hades would not prevail against it.

From within and from without tremendous forces have acted to destroy the Christian church for 2,000 years. I said from outside persecution and inside corruption. She continues to be built.

As an official warned his king when he thought to launch a persecution against the Christians "Sier, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers."

This prophecy persuades me that we are on the right track to believe the Bible.

If you are really so lacking in curiosity, then there is little point in your debating the issue. Indeed, there can be no genuine debate with such an attitude.

I am not lacking in curiosity at all. I have quite a few good questions about what I read in the Bible. I study it constantly.

Perhaps you mistake unbelief and doubt for curiosity. There are some matters that I have graduated from unbelief and doubt. That does not mean I have no curiosity.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Granny Magda, posted 05-04-2009 11:14 AM Granny Magda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Modulous, posted 05-04-2009 10:43 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 142 of 327 (507419)
05-04-2009 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by purpledawn
05-04-2009 12:00 PM


Re: Isaiah 53 - Verse 1 and 2
Sorry, Isaiah again doesn't seem to be speaking of a spiritual battle, but a physical one. Show me that his words depict a spiritual battle and not physical. What makes it spiritual aside from you.

If you are refering to Isaiah 53 there certainly is the implication of spiritual battle.

"We all like sheep have gone astray; Each to his own way."

This is going astray from God. God is intrinsically a spiritual matter. This is true in the Old Testament as well as in the New.

Now where is the "battle"? "Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great. He will divide the spoil with the strong." (v.12)

This clearly a military type of word picture. "By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servvant, will make the many righteous, and He will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide to Him a portion with the Great, And He will divide the spoil with the Strong; Because He poured out His life unto death."

The Suffering Servant divides the spoils of this "warfare" over men with God "the Strong" and co-partake of the benefits of victory with God "the Great".

So I think spiritual warefare is definitely indicated in Isaiah 53.

You were talking about Isaiah 53 weren't you?

God is about securing spiritual spoils including justified and righteous human beings. The spoils will He divide with His Suffering Servant because of His act in securing these "spoils" of spiritual and moral war.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 05-04-2009 12:00 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 05-05-2009 6:32 AM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 143 of 327 (507421)
05-04-2009 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 3:54 PM


The object of the thread was to show proof of biblical prophecy fulfilled.

I see your point.


If the New Testament as the oracles of God says that Jesus was refered to in Isaiah 53, that is the end of the matter.

Is not proof it is faith.

Yes that is faith.

And one of the reasons for this faith is the fulfillment of prophecy.

When Jesus rose He explained to the doubting disciples that all these things happened according to the Scripture prophecy.

The fulfillment of the prophecies was for them confirming proof that they were on the right track to believe in Christ.


Believe me, the last thing I want is for something to be done for me.

Typical christian prattle. You have no argument so resort to condescension

I see better the nature of the thread.

But one has to make a decision eventually to decide that something has been proved.

Can you prove that the sun is not circling around the earth? I could object to your proof because I don't think you have total proof that the planet earth is not standing perfectly still.

Can you prove that the earth is not the only object in the universe standing perfectly in the same place?

So one can often continue to move the goal post and say that something has not been proved.

Sometimes it is a matter of "How much proof is proof"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 3:54 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:57 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 145 of 327 (507423)
05-04-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 9:57 PM


Not if proof has not been given. That would be silly.

Various posters have rebutted your explanations for Isaiah. Therefore, you resorted to the old "if you accept Jesus you will see the proof" BS.
I guess none of us should be surprised.

Not surprised that you didn't take up the challenge to "prove" a generally accepted scientific concept of a heliocentric solarsystem.

Neither can you really prove it.

The show of objectivity on your part doesn't impress me either.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:57 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 10:23 PM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 149 of 327 (507433)
05-05-2009 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Theodoric
05-04-2009 9:57 PM


Various posters have rebutted your explanations for Isaiah.

"Various" posters who disbelieve that Isaiah refered to Christ are just examples of various ones to whom the report was made who did not believe.

As the prophet Isaiah begins the chapter:

"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (Isa. 53:1)

Your "various" posters are just among the many and various disbelieving hearers of the prophet's prophecy. Big deal.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Theodoric, posted 05-04-2009 9:57 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 150 of 327 (507435)
05-05-2009 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Modulous
05-04-2009 10:43 PM


Re: The joy of prophecy
No you didn't. You recount your personal experience, and try to suggest that your experience is universal.

Yes I did. And yes I do.

You've never tried to call out to the Person of Christ perhaps. So you don't know that you will not have the same kind of experience.

In case you did not know, there are truths which are personal and universal. Timing is not the same for everyone though.


This is like me saying 'I enjoyed the taste of Spinach therefore I have experienced that Spinach tastes good to all who eat it'.

I think it is more like saying Spinach is good for human food. Whether you have a personal taste for Spinach is another story. Though you may turn your nose up at Spinach it is still good for food.

"Just taste and see that the Lord is good."

Refusing to taste doesn't prove that there is no Lord or that He is not good to those who are willing to taste.


You have merely interpreted a subjective experience as if it represented a universal and absolute truth for all.

Well, it is true that in this stage of history God is pleased to reveal Himself at the personal level. After all that is the nature of God as the center of each individual human's life.

You can't say that because it was personal it is not universal truth. At best you can take an Agnostic approach. "I don't know of God. Maybe someone else knows of God."


It's an easy mistake to make, and it is precisely the mistake people make when they think that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his prophet or that Jesus Christ is God because "I have experienced that this is the case".

It is true that one could be mistaken. Of course Muslims do not proport to know God on a personal level. Ask them.

To the Muslim the concept of Allah is firmly held by them. That is true. I have yet to meet one who speaks of Allah as having come into them so as to be untimately and subjectively experienced. Allah is to be obeyed. But they don't really talk about a subjective and initimate contact with Allah.

Christ on the other hand speaks of He and the Father coming to make an abode with the lover of Christ - (And I emphasize a lover)

"Judas, not Isacariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are about to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?

Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

Now I think that John was keen to include the record of this exchange. Judas's question is very good as He understood Christ's teaching that He would manifest Himself to His disciples while the world at large would not experience this manifestation.

"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (v.21)

Judas asks then, How will Jesus manifest Himself to His followers yet not to the world? And Jesus responds with verse 23 which says that to His lovers He and the Father will come to them and make an abode with them.

You will not find a parallel teaching of this indwelling in Islam. And it is possible because of the main subject of the 14th chapter of John, the coming of the Spirit of reality, the Another Comforter, the Holy Spirit Whom God will dispense into the lovers of Christ.

How do you know that it is not a matter of timing? That is you have not yet become a lover of Christ and the Father and Son have not yet come to make an abode with you?


So when I read that the Lord is rich to all who call upon Him or that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, I know that I have experienced that. That is fulfilled prophetic utterance to me.

And yet you discount the fact that the Lord is as ashes and dust when I call upon him.

You don't call because you start out with the presupposition that He is ashes and dust.

There is a class of things which you have to first believe in order to experience. Many people lift of the name of Jesus Christ as simply a two part curse word. That is not calling on the name of the Lord.

And many will say "Lord, Lord" who may not enter into the kingdom of God. So glibly lifting up the name of God in vain is not what Romans is talking about.

But don't be discouraged. IF you call on the name of the Lord, as meaning you intend to receive Jesus as your Lord, YOU are no longer on the throne, but you receive Him as the Lord - then He will also become rich to you too.

How do you feel about this? God says that your sins have made a separation between you and your God:

"No, Jehovah's hand is not so short that it cannot save; Nor is His ear so heavy that it cannot hear.

But your iniquities have become a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hide His face from you." (Isaiah 59:1,2)

If your reaction is "I have not sinned. I do not need the Lord to remove the guilt of my sins. I don't even believe there is a God." That could be a problem that Christ is not real to you subjectively.

Anyway, calling on the Lord may include for you the acknowledgment in your calling that your sins have made a separation between you and your God.

If you say "There is no MY God. I want no God. No God will ever be MY God." That would also be a problem why you do not experience what so many have.

But this portion of Isaiah informs us that there is no problem with the power of God's "hand" and no problem with God's "ear". But His "face" is turned away because man's sins have made a separation between himself and God. So calling on the Lord should also include the thought that you need the Lord to deal with the problem of your separating sins.


This shows the prophecy as false, but you will not accept that, nor the testimony of thousands of others who have experienced likewise. This is classic prophecy interpretation: ignore the problems, focus on the 'hits'. It's like going to see a psychic or reading a horoscope or casting I Ching or doing a Ouija board.

I would say that horoscopes and casting I Ching and psychic readings are an imitation of this and not the other way around.

In Exodus when Moses threw down his staff and it became a serpent the Egyptian magicians were able to do the same thing by their arts. That is incredible to me. However it reveals a principle.

To a degree the Satanic forces are able to imitate acts of God. So it is not that fulfilled biblical prophecy is like Edgar Cayce's or Jean Dixion's predictions. It is that Nostradamus and Jean Dixon, etc. are false prophets who by their dark arts sometimes have some imitation of the acts of God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Modulous, posted 05-04-2009 10:43 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Modulous, posted 05-05-2009 1:48 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 152 of 327 (507438)
05-05-2009 6:32 AM


To the general complaint of skeptics:

"You have to believe to have faith. And you have to have faith to believe" I do not try to argue.

I have decided that that is true and biblical. You have to have some faith in order to believe in God and you have to have some belief in order to have faith.

The Bible confirms as much:

"But without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to Him, for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

Some observations:

1.) The writer says "Come forward to God". The coming implies that he as well as others have already come. So the confirmation of those who have come before me is helpful. I seek to come forward to where they are in the experience of God. So I listen to them.

2.) You have to believe that God is in order to come to God. While the logician may complain of circular logic, he should realize also that this condition in and of itself does not prove that God is not real.

3.) The Bible also is a record of a vast variety of levels of faith - from nearly none at all to a lot. Thomas requested imperical proof of Christ's resurrection by examining His wounds. Gideon fleeced God and was assisted with confirming tests of probability.

So God did not disallow people to ask for a sign or assistance to believe. And today we may also if it is not more of a sign then God is pleased to give.

I trust my father that he is my dad. I don't really know that. I trust him. I mean I never got a DNA analysis done on his blood. I trust him and he trusts his wife, my mother, that I am indeed his son.

Similarly, we can trust God or we can insist on more of a sign than God is pleased to give to confirm. He must know that in some cases it is not a problem with the intellect. It is a problem in the will.


jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 153 of 327 (507439)
05-05-2009 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by purpledawn
05-05-2009 6:32 AM


Re: Isaiah 53 - Verse 1 and 2
Show that the words used by Isaiah clearly describe a spiritual battle.
Your own creative interpretation doesn't make it so for Isaiah's words.

Must leave for now. Don't anyone weep. I'll be back and try to help you to see that a prophet of God in the Bible, in general, deals with "spiritual" matters.

Even when God's prophets are talking about material things, they are usually trying to secure spiritual values.

I thought you knew that.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by purpledawn, posted 05-05-2009 6:32 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 156 of 327 (507445)
05-05-2009 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Peg
05-05-2009 7:30 AM


Re: Circular Reasoning
I think Jaywill was making the point that if one wants to make a claim that contradicts scripture, then the claim can easily be dealt with.

My point with Theodoric was that the human mind can often continue ad infinitum saying "But you haven't PROVED it yet."

And with the phenomenon of prophecy this is a popular tactic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Peg, posted 05-05-2009 7:30 AM Peg has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 159 of 327 (507478)
05-05-2009 12:57 PM


For those who make the case "But even the Jews did not believe that such and such was a prophecy about Christ."

That may be true. But before you hedge all your bets on that you should realize the record of occasional Jewish unbelief.

At one point neither did they believe that Moses was going to lead them to the Promise Land. They were ready to stone him and return to slavery in Egypt.

They also rejected Jeremiah's prophecy that bad things would happen to the remnant of Jews if they attempted to flee to Egypt. In this case the a group of Jews went to Jeremiah and asked him to tell them what it was that God wanted them to do. After he returned from inquiring from God and told them, the flat out rejected it because it was not what they wanted to hear !

"You didn't speak what God was saying!" they retorted. The account is very instructive - Jeremiah 34:15-30.

They rejected the prophecy because they WANTED God to say what THEY wanted to have happen to them down in Egypt.

Please read this before making jump decisions about how to react to prophecy in the Bible.

And there are other cases of Jewish unbelief. You cannot base everything on Jewish belief or unbelief.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Theodoric, posted 05-05-2009 1:06 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 325 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 161 of 327 (507481)
05-05-2009 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by purpledawn
05-05-2009 8:58 AM


Re: Offspring and eternal life
Purpledawn,

You may say that the prophesy of Isaiah 53 doesn't match the life of Jesus.

But I would say that even in fulfillment of prophecy from God, there is always an element of possible doubt - intentionally perhaps.

"But what if it is not really a fulfillment of a promise of God?" some doubt.

There is room left for doubt if you want to. Often there is just enough evidence to be convinced but also just enough residue to doubt if you wish.

The Bible is a test on you and I. It is not only a test on God. It seems that God often gives you a way out if you really do not want to believe His heart and His word.

I'll speak more to this latter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by purpledawn, posted 05-05-2009 8:58 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

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