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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Peg
Member (Idle past 3270 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 1 of 327 (506632)
04-28-2009 6:24 AM


(probably for the Bible Study thread or Faith & Belief)

Bible prophecy was one of the main reasons I started to take a serious look at the bible and religion. I really had very little knowledge of God or the bible when I was growing up and I could not say for sure that God was real because I had never experienced anything supernatural.

So when someone offered to show me 'proof' that the bible was a book inspired by God, i was obviously interested in how they could prove it. That 'proof' was prophecy.

Just so we are all on the same page as to what prophecy is, it means...(and there may be additional meanings)

1. revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof
2. an expression of a divine command or judgment,
3. a declaration of something to come.

the Apostle Peter wrote:

quote:
. 2Peter 1:20 "...no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit

I would also like to be clear that this thread is not for debate on whether a prophecy was written after the event but whether the prophecy was fulfilled in the manner that the scripture said it would be fulfilled.
(However, I know that critics make the claim of late authorship, so I will qualify each prophecy with the evidence for the time it was written)
______________________________________________
Prophecy about Alexander the Great in Daniel Chapter's 8 & 11.

In the sixth century BCE, the Prophet Daniel (as the book named after him) was inspired to record some remarkable visions that he saw which fortold the future course of world events. the visions he describes were a number of symbolic animals that displace one another on the world scene. He asked God what the vision means and an angel explains that the animals foreshadow world powers from his day onward.

One of those world powers was Greece...this is one small part of the prophecy.

quote:
Daniel 11:3 "And a mighty king will certainly stand up and rule with extensive dominion and do according to his will. And when he will have stood up, his kingdom will be broken and be divided toward the four winds of the heavens, but not to his posterity."

Speaking of the final two beasts, the angel says:

quote:
"The ram that you saw possessing the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it stands for the first king. And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power" Daniel 8:20-22.

How was this fullfilled?
The Babylonian Empire, (where Daniel was in captivity at the time of his writing, 618-535 BCE) was overthrown by the Ram possessing the two horns Medo-Persia, which, 200 years later, was conquered by the Greek world power spearheaded by Alexander the Great, "the great horn."

However, after Alexander's sudden death (323BCE), the "the great horn was broken", and his 4 generals divided the empire between them; the result being that the empire broke into four smaller empires, "four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up...but not with his power"

History testifies to the fact that his life was cut short and his 4 generals Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus all took a portion of the empire to rule. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi
________________

But did Daniel write this prophecy in the 6th century, or later as critics claim? First, the book was alluded to in the first book of Maccabees (2bce). fIt was included in the Greek Septuagint version, the translation of which began in the 3rd century BCE.
Most notabley though, it contains historical details that would have been unknown to a second-century writer such as Belshazzar, the ruler of Babylon who was killed when Babylon fell in 539 BCE.

The non-Biblical sources of the fall of Babylon are Herodotus (5th century), Xenophon (5th and 4th centuries), and Berossus (3rd century). None of these knew about Belshazzar. So its very unlikely that a second-century writer would have had information that had been unavailable to these earlier authors!
_____________

This is just one, there are so many more, but this is good one to start with.

some others that I would suggest to look at would be

1. the Messiahs time of arrival prophecy in Daniel.
2. the end of the Gentile Times & effects for earth
3. the Messianic prophecies and how they were fulfilled in Jesus
4. destruction of the ancient Kingdom of Tyre
5. Jesus prophecy about the Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE
6. the 'Seed' of God to destroy 'Seed' of Devil
7. Apostates to take over the christian church
8. Destruction of Babylonian world empire by Persian King Cyrus

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by Perdition, posted 04-28-2009 1:10 PM Peg has responded
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Message 2 of 327 (506640)
04-28-2009 6:57 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

PaulK
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Message 3 of 327 (506654)
04-28-2009 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
04-28-2009 6:24 AM


I can understand why you don't want to discuss the date of writing. Mainstream Bible scholars date it to the mid-2nd Century BC.

So lets look at your evidence for the date of writing:

quote:

First, the book was alluded to in the first book of Maccabees (2bce).

2 BCE is much later the the likely date for the writing of Daniel (probably completed in 164 BCE). 1 Maccabees does not help your case.

quote:

It was included in the Greek Septuagint version, the translation of which began in the 3rd century BCE.

The translation of the Torah began in the 3rd Century BC. There was no organised effort to translate the complete Tanakh as we know it today at that time. Hence this is no help to you either.

quote:

Most notabley though, it contains historical details that would have been unknown to a second-century writer such as Belshazzar, the ruler of Babylon who was killed when Babylon fell in 539 BCE.

Nabonidus (the father of Belshazzar) was ruler of Babylon at that time - and HE is completely absent from the Book of Daniel. This surprising omission suggests that the author of Daniel did not have very good information about that time.

However you are also missing something very important from Daniel 8.

Daniel 8 is said a vision of the end times (8:17) I think that we can agree that the world did not come to an end at the time Daniel 8(which is the mid-2nd Century BC). That's a big mistake for a genuine prophet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 04-28-2009 6:24 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peepul
Member (Idle past 3358 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 4 of 327 (506658)
04-28-2009 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
04-28-2009 6:24 AM


Peg, are there any prophecies made either in old or new testament that you believe have come true in recent times (last 1800 years or so)?

In these cases, the fact that the prophecy occurred before the events in question would be completely unambiguous.


This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
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Message 5 of 327 (506659)
04-28-2009 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
04-28-2009 8:12 AM


Re end times
Hi Paul,

Paulk writes:

Daniel 8 is said a vision of the end times (8:17) I think that we can agree that the world did not come to an end at the time Daniel 8(which is the mid-2nd Century BC). That's a big mistake for a genuine prophet.

Would not what is classified end times be determined by the duration from Genesis 1:1 until the melting of the earth, which is less than 4 billion years away?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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PaulK
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Posts: 15644
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 6 of 327 (506662)
04-28-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
04-28-2009 8:39 AM


Re: Re end times
quote:

Would not what is classified end times be determined by the duration from Genesis 1:1 until the melting of the earth, which is less than 4 billion years away?

No. On that basis ALL Biblical Prophecies would be about the period termed the End Times - and it would make absolutely no sense to single Daniel 8 out when it has no special connection to the melting of the Earth.


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Theodoric
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Posts: 6883
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Joined: 08-15-2005
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Message 7 of 327 (506680)
04-28-2009 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
04-28-2009 6:24 AM


quote:
I would also like to be clear that this thread is not for debate on whether a prophecy was written after the event but whether the prophecy was fulfilled in the manner that the scripture said it would be fulfilled.

There can be no debate about whether there are fulfilled prophecy if there is no debate on whether the supposed prophecy were written before the event.

As has been shown by PaulK there are serious problems with your dating of Daniel. There is no way you can say these are fulfilled prophecies if you cannot firmly establish the dating the book.

Also, these passages could be interpretted anyway you want. There are end of times loonies that believe these passages reflect the here and now.

The Ram (Iraq/Iran) is attacked and defeated by the GOAT (Western Allience - US / GB coalition) power, which comes from the WEST, across the earth without touching the ground. (War Planes)

This war is staged near the 'stream Ulai' - Traditional Bible commentaries refers the GOAT to be Greece, and the large horn to be Alexander the Great as the first king.. However, Alexander the Great defeated the Medes and Persians on the Plains of Arbella, approx 1000 miles distance from Ulai, and Phillip the third was the king before Alexander. Which makes it difficult to reconcile traditional applications to this prophecy. What's more; the event takes place vs 17. "AT THE TIME OF THE END' which cannot possibly be 321 BC when Alexander the great ruled the area, also he only ruled one part of the world, NOT the entire world.

Last year I found a post on another board that clearly laid out 3 points that must be met in order for something to truly be a prophecy. I agree with these and no bible policies fulfill these 3 points.

3 points

1) The prophecy must be proven to have been spoken before it was fulfilled. This is a major problem with Old Testament Prophecy. To prove that the prophecy wasn't written after the fact, one must find the earliest copy we have of a prophecy and carbon date it. That date must be sometime before the prophesied event occured. The Book of Daniel runs into this problem, as all evidence suggests it was written long after its alleged "predictions".

2) The prophecy must be specific. No vague, Nostradamus Style prophecy. The Book of Revelation runs into exactly this problem. The prophecies are so vague that they can have easily have many different "fulfillments". For instance, who is the beast of Revelation 13 (whose number is 666)? Some Fundamentalist Christians insist that it is the pope; Catholics believe it was Caesar Nero; and yet a few conpiracy theorists argue that it is Ronald Reagan! These symbloic prophecies are meaningless because they can be interpreted to fulfill anything that happens.

3) The prophecy must be of something that was not forseeable. For instance, a lot of people predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union, because they saw that it was a very unstable government. Yet we do not think of them as prophets. A prophecy must be something that few/none would have predicted when it was made.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 853 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 8 of 327 (506687)
04-28-2009 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
04-28-2009 10:40 AM


I like the last qualification, especially as it applies to the economic crisis.

Almost no one saw this coming except a few (just one example). Turns out, they were largely right.

Now, this crisis is arguably something that should have been foreseen clearly by more people (and obviously is in hindsight), but very few were predicting this recession three or four years ago.

Why doesn't the bible have any of these types of prophets/prophecies?


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1578 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
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Message 9 of 327 (506705)
04-28-2009 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
04-28-2009 6:24 AM


Hi Peg,

Thanks for creating this thread, and I don't want to jump on you and try to destroy your faith, I find this a purely information gathering venture. I want to understand why it is you think these prophecies were fulfilled.

One problem I have with prophecy is how vague it is. IF God wants to show someone something happening in the future so they can write it down, why does he do so in a way that is open to interpretation? Why doesn't he tell David, "Yo, Dave, write this down, Babylon will fall to Medo-Persia, which will in turn fall to Alexander the Great from Macedonia. When Alex dies, his generals will fight for control and eventually tear his empire into 4 pieces."

True, it would not be written in English, and the names of the places would not have been known yet, but since God can show the future, he can obviously know the names that will be used. Using imagery and poetic language confuses the matter. A good example is Nostradamus, who was writing about France during the time he was alive, but since he would have been killed for writing some of the things he saw, he couched them in prophetic styles such that people are still trying to force recent events onto his writings. The fact that people will ascribe different events to the same so-called prophecy just means that it's completely open to interpretation.

Secondly, what is the use of prophecy if it isn't clear what it is saying until after it takes place? If it's just to prove that a certain person is a prophet, it seems rather unnecessary. If it is to prove something about God, I would think an all-powerful deity could prove that thing easier and more clearly.

"The ram that you saw possessing the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. And the hairy he-goat stands for the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it stands for the first king. And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from his nation that will stand up, but not with his power" Daniel 8:20-22.

This is a very clear prophecy, it seems, compared to what most prophecy is. The problem is that it is still vague. Why would we need two things to stand for the same person? If Alexander is the Greek king in question, why does he need the goat and the horn to stand for him? If the goat stands for the kingdom of Greece throughout time and the horn stands for just the ruler, then the "first king" would be Alexander's father Philip, since he was the one who unified most of the city states that became Greece. Alexander would then be "the second king."

From the Wikipedia page you linked regarding the Diadochi...there were far more than 4 successors:

wikipedia writes:

The other cavalry generals who had supported Perdiccas were rewarded in the partition of Babylon by becoming satraps of the various parts of the Empire. Ptolemy received Egypt; Laomedon received Syria and Phoenicia; Philotas took Cilicia; Peithon took Media; Antigonus received Phrygia, Lycia and Pamphylia; Asander received Caria; Menander received Lydia; Lysimachus received Thrace; Leonnatus received Hellespontine Phrygia; and Neoptolemus had Armenia. Macedon and the rest of Greece were to be under the joint rule of Antipater, who had governed them for Alexander, and Craterus, Alexander's most able lieutenant, while Alexander's old secretary, Eumenes of Cardia, was to receive Cappadocia and Paphlagonia.

In the east, Perdiccas largely left Alexander's arrangements intact - Taxiles and Porus ruled over their kingdoms in India; Alexander's father-in-law Oxyartes ruled Gandara; Sibyrtius ruled Arachosia and Gedrosia; Stasanor ruled Aria and Drangiana; Philip ruled Bactria and Sogdiana; Phrataphernes ruled Parthia and Hyrcania; Peucestas governed Persis; Tlepolemus had charge over Carmania; Atropates governed northern Media; Archon got Babylonia; and Arcesilas ruled northern Mesopotamia.

There is a nice chart listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Babylon#Summary

Prophesy, especially when someone else tells you what it is supposed to mean can be convincing, but if you look at all the facts, the claimed interpretation usually falls apart. Most so-called prophecy is exactly the same as Nostradamus' case, they would have been persecuted for speaking out about the current rule or the badness of the times and so couch their terms in the future.

It's very much like what Gene Roddenberry did with Star Trek. The network censors would never let things like prostitution, racial prejudice and even interracial romance to be shown on a contemporary show, but by saying, well this isn't about now, it's the future, they were able to slip things by.


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 Message 1 by Peg, posted 04-28-2009 6:24 AM Peg has responded

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PaulK
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Posts: 15644
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 10 of 327 (506707)
04-28-2009 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Theodoric
04-28-2009 10:40 AM


I'll agree that we need good reason to conclude that the prophecy was written in advance of events. However, asking for carbon dated scrolls is going too far. There are good enough reasons to doubt the "traditional" dates for Daniel without making demands that we shouldn't expect to be met.

The other conditions are reasonable. I'll add a fourth.

We need to take the whole prophecy in context - looking at bits and pieces is not enough.
It's a lot easy to claim a great success if you can ignore all the things that don't fit.

We did have a thread discussing the issues that needed to be considered, although that was quite a while ago. I may go looking for it.


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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 11 of 327 (506735)
04-28-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Peepul
04-28-2009 8:38 AM


The Jewish people themselves are one of the greatest fulfilled prophesies in recent times.

Ez 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

This began in earnest in the early 1900's, and was culminated in 1948 with the establishment of the nation of Israel. The rest is history.

Now we are entering into the times of Zech 12-14.


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PaulK
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Posts: 15644
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 12 of 327 (506737)
04-28-2009 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John 10:10
04-28-2009 4:57 PM


quote:

Ez 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.

This began in earnest in the early 1900's, and was culminated in 1948 with the establishment of the nation of Israel. The rest is history.


Wasn't Ezekiel written during the Babylonian Exile ? What makes you think that it has anything to do with the 20th Century ?


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2530 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 13 of 327 (506740)
04-28-2009 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
04-28-2009 5:07 PM


Wasn't Ezekiel written during the Babylonian Exile ? What makes you think that it has anything to do with the 20th Century ?

It probably doesn't, which as was stated earlier, these so called prophecies are so vague that one can take it to mean almost anything.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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Perdition
Member (Idle past 1578 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 14 of 327 (506742)
04-28-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John 10:10
04-28-2009 4:57 PM


What about people who see a prophecy and work to make it's outcome true. Does that validate the prophecy or just the fact that people could make it come true?

For example, if I said in a prophecy that a child will be saved from being run over by a bus by a man wearing a Superman costume, then a person who wants my prophecy to be true decides to dress up as Superman, pushes a kid in front of a bus only to jump out and save him, has my prophecy been proven true? I would argue not because the prophecy itself is what caused the event, not just a foretelling of an event.


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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
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Message 15 of 327 (506743)
04-28-2009 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
04-28-2009 5:07 PM


When the Jews were sent into Babylonian exile, they were sent primarily to Babylon, not to "all nations" of the world. If you can't see the fulfillment of Ez 36;24 ocurring from the early 1900's onward, it's no wonder that you missed the Messiah's 1st coming and all the prophesies surrounding His 1st coming, and you will miss His 2nd coming as well.

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