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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 241 of 327 (508070)
05-10-2009 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by jaywill
05-10-2009 10:39 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
quote:
there is extra-biblical testimonial to the fact that Jesus lived and died.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Present the evidence.

quote:
for extra-biblical testimony that Jesus rose from the dead

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Present the evidence.

quote:
I have also see quite a bit of resistence to extra-biblical testimonial that Jesus was extraordinary and lived. Popular is the excuse that such historical testimonial was forged by Christians.

What do you do?


Present the evidence. That is what you do.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 10:39 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 10:58 AM Theodoric has responded
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:08 AM Theodoric has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 242 of 327 (508071)
05-10-2009 10:53 AM


"Don't preach." I here that often from Internet Skeptics.

Sorry some of you have nothing of which you're enthusiastic to proclaim to others.

Are you "tolerant" or is it that you just don't have anything worth talking about enthusiastically?

This preacher is not accustomed to ignoring thougthful challenges or objections to my alledged "sermons".

You guys preach too.


Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 11:03 AM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 243 of 327 (508072)
05-10-2009 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 10:52 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Evidence that Jesus is the best referent to the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 has been given.

Extra-faith community testimnials may have a problem recognizing that there is any NEED for someone to be their sin offering.
'
At least they should recognize the JESUS thought so and conducted Himself and His teaching in such a manner as to fulfilled what Isaiah prophesied.

Outside the Bible there is a whole civilization that recognizes at least that Jesus Came, Lived, Died, and taught of Himself in terms of what Isaiah predicted.

They may have a vested interest to come short in admitting that Christ actually is the Servant of God.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 10:52 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 11:06 AM jaywill has responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 244 of 327 (508073)
05-10-2009 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by jaywill
05-10-2009 10:53 AM


Preach to proclaim or make known by sermon

Sermon a discourse for the purpose of religious instruction or exhortation, esp. one based on a text of Scripture and delivered by a member of the clergy as part of a religious service.

Preaching and a sermon are not how you should validate your positions. Especially, when in a discussion with skeptics.

quote:
Sorry some of you have nothing of which you're enthusiastic to proclaim to others.

Are you "tolerant" or is it that you just don't have anything worth talking about enthusiastically?


Do you even read the challenges people have made to you? They seem pretty enthusiastic to me. Or do you discount them because they challenge your superstitions?

I like how you use your christianist buzzword "proclaim". Classic and typical.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 10:53 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 245 of 327 (508074)
05-10-2009 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by jaywill
05-10-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
So based on your reply to my request for evidence. You have none? I sure don't see any in your reply to me.

Remember extra-biblical evidence for the life and death of this Jesus guy.

I really don't understand what your last post even said. Just random sentences spouting christianist dogma.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 10:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:18 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 256 by Peg, posted 05-11-2009 1:53 AM Theodoric has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 246 of 327 (508075)
05-10-2009 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 10:52 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
This Forum room is about What the Bible Really Means.

There are other rooms where historical reliability of Scripture is hashed out.

Pliney, Phlegon, Josephus our extra-biblcal confirmers of the life of Jesus to a degree.

I frequent this particular forum because my greater interest is What the Bible really means.

In so discussing the prophecy matter I have made the case that Isaiah 53 means Jesus of Nazareth.

My suspicion has long been that when things get quiet on this Forum, discusions really belonging on other Forums find there way over here to Bible Study to warm things up a little.

I could be wrong. I think moderation is lenient when it comes to placing postings here which more appropriately seem suited to other rooms. Case in point - you harping of extra biblical evidence on fulfilled prophecy.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 10:52 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 12:44 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 252 by bluescat48, posted 05-10-2009 1:11 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 254 by Kapyong, posted 05-10-2009 6:49 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 255 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 6:56 PM jaywill has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 247 of 327 (508076)
05-10-2009 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
really don't understand what your last post even said. Just random sentences spouting christianist dogma.

Dogma can be right sometimes.

Dogma is not untrue, simply because it is dogma.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Theodoric, posted 05-10-2009 11:06 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by mark24, posted 05-10-2009 11:39 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 489 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 248 of 327 (508077)
05-10-2009 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by jaywill
05-10-2009 10:11 AM


Re: The confidence trick continues
Okay, maybe that problem of yours is too hard for me to solve. However, I don' think I will play into you hands and say because of your problem therefore prophecies in the Bible are unreliable in general.

After a post where I stressed that I wasn't asking for you to 'solve' the problem of why I didn't feel the richness, you reply with this? There are only two explanations.

1. You are deliberately not addressing my point, even when I repeat it several times using different wordings and put it in bold italics. That is to say: You are not debating in good faith.

2. You have been so utterly hoodwinked by the confidence trick of prophecy you are almost entirely incapable of comprehending the point.

In applying the principle of charity, I am forced to conclude it is the latter, in which case I pity you. Maybe you should try arguing with psychics and other woo-meisters for a while, you'll begin to see that they suffer from the same blindess and use the same diversionary tactics. They all seem to incapable of grasping the simple concept that a prediction which can take into account every conceivable eventuality is no prediction at all.

On the other hand, if you want to address the actual points I raised, I'll be keen to hear what you have to say about them. Return to the previous posts and try to understand what I am saying and how it might be different from what you currently think I am saying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 10:11 AM jaywill has not yet responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3580 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 249 of 327 (508078)
05-10-2009 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by jaywill
05-10-2009 11:18 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
jaywill,

Dogma can be right sometimes.

Dogma is not untrue, simply because it is dogma.

But you were asked for evidence, gave none, & when this was pointed out you evade by suggesting that your evidentially vacuous dogma might not be false. Evasion.

Mark


There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:18 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 250 of 327 (508081)
05-10-2009 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by jaywill
05-10-2009 11:08 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
You are the one that brought up extra biblical support for your arguments.

Don't play the game that you can say anything and not back it up just because it is a bible study room. You are the one making the assertions. Either back them up, or admit that all you have are your beliefs.

I can respect the fact that you believe it just because you believe, but dont try to spin a conversation. When you make an assertion or a claim you can either back it up or retract it.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:08 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2009 8:30 AM Theodoric has responded

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2574 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 251 of 327 (508082)
05-10-2009 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by jaywill
05-10-2009 10:39 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
I have also see quite a bit of resistence to extra-biblical testimonial that Jesus was extraordinary and lived. Popular is the excuse that such historical testimonial was forged by Christians.

The point is what I am looking for is non-christian evidence ie the decree from Augustus that sent everyone back to the ancestral home to register that is dated and found to be from the actual era ~5 to 8 BCE.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 10:39 AM jaywill has not yet responded

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2574 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 252 of 327 (508083)
05-10-2009 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by jaywill
05-10-2009 11:08 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
I could be wrong. I think moderation is lenient when it comes to placing postings here which more appropriately seem suited to other rooms. Case in point - you harping of extra biblical evidence on fulfilled prophecy.

The Tile of the topic is

Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy

So where else would one ask for evidence to such. If you are going to say that the prophesy has been fulfilled, than this is why we ask for substanciating evidence.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:08 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12655
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 253 of 327 (508094)
05-10-2009 3:24 PM


Moderator on Board
Hi all!

I'll be moderating this thread. I tried to read back to discover how discussion had gotten to this point, but I didn't find it after a few minutes and I'm not willing to put more time into it right now.

So posts after this one should address the topic, the whole topic, and nothing but the topic. Please leave all digressions and complaints about digressions to me, I'm good at it, I know because everyone complains about it. Thanks!

Oh, by the way, if you post before seeing this, better change it quick!


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 1827 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 254 of 327 (508116)
05-10-2009 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by jaywill
05-10-2009 11:08 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Gday,

jaywill writes:

Pliney, Phlegon, Josephus our extra-biblcal confirmers of the life of Jesus to a degree.

PLINY the Younger (c.112CE)

About 80 years after the alleged events, (and over 40 years after the war) Pliny referred to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus (or Gospel events.)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/pliny.html

PHLEGON (c.140)

Phlegon wrote during the 140s - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon actually said anything about Jesus or Gospel events, he was merely talking about an eclipse (they DO happen) which LATER Christians argued was the "darkness" in their stories.

JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)

The famous Testamonium Flavianum (the T.F.) in the Antiquities of the Jews is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the devout Jew Josephus (who remained a Jew and refused to call anyone "messiah" in his book which was partly about how false messiahs kept leading Israel astray.),
* The T.F. was not mentioned by any of the early Church fathers who reviewed Josephus.
* Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.

An analysis of Josephus can be found here:
http://www.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/supp10.htm

In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
But, yes,
it COULD just be actual evidence for Jesus - late, corrupt, controversial but just POSSIBLY real historical evidence.

Kapyong


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:08 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 255 of 327 (508119)
05-10-2009 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by jaywill
05-10-2009 11:08 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
quote:
I could be wrong. I think moderation is lenient when it comes to placing postings here which more appropriately seem suited to other rooms. Case in point - you harping of extra biblical evidence on fulfilled prophecy.

If not then what else are we supposed to accept as evidence of prophecy fulfillment? Your word? Other passages in the bible? Have you not been reading this thread?

There needs to be some sort of evidence or support outside of the bible in order for you to realistically claim that there is a fulfillment of a biblical prophecy.

No preaching, no lame excuses, no PRATTS, like Josephus, Pliny(I have never seen it written as Pliney) or Phlegon. Give us some sort of evidence. Anything.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2009 11:08 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Peg, posted 05-11-2009 2:17 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

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