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Author Topic:   Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 301 of 327 (508384)
05-13-2009 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by purpledawn
05-12-2009 9:22 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Glenn Miller is very questionable as a source. He is obviously a committed christianist.

Glenn M. Miller, committed evangelical disciple of Jesus Christ for the last 35 years of my life, research/writer/speaker, IT business executive, father of three gifted, delightful, over-stimulated, people--all seeking, questioning, open-minded, authentic people [one lives in Philly, one lives in heaven, and one lives in San Jose]. Philosopher, theologian, divorced (still a little ashamed, but forgiven), mild MaiTai-er, extreme empathetic, serious but passionate about the deep issues of life/existence.

His website is http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ , so I am sure he is very objectice. NOT.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 9:22 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Cedre, posted 05-13-2009 4:56 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 310 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 6:51 AM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 312 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2009 7:23 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Cedre
Member
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 302 of 327 (508400)
05-13-2009 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Theodoric
05-13-2009 12:14 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
His website is http://www.christian-thinktank.com/ , so I am sure he is very objectice. NOT.

As if the atheists are objective concerning their disbelieve in God. Is it not their refusal of the former that double up as motivation for their active denunciation of the miraculous and denunciation of God?

I find it highly two-faced for an atheist to assert and maintain that religious people are doctrinaire or subjective about their believes when in matter of fact atheists are just as passionate about defending their conclusions, and moreover one almost never encounters any constructive appraisal of God or of other faith issues by any atheist when visiting websites like EvC or talkorigins.org, or one will hardly find a critical review of atheism by any atheist. What you are sure to stumble upon is the slandering of religion and the veneration of atheism; if you call this behavior objective then this word has lost its meaning.

The simple fact that many atheist are in the business of actively crusading against any reflection of God even by children and being unattractively intolerant towards the idea of a god in their day to day lives while deifying atheism at the same time is proof that they are not objective at all but in fact are highly prejudiced.

To conclude this post I have one question. When is a person objective? Is it when he/she believes less in God or when he/she believes more in God?
Up to this point I have noticed that the largest number of posters here are more lenient to the first definition. I want the atheist to reply to this question? I would love to know how they define this word as it relates to the believe and disbelieve in God.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Theodoric, posted 05-13-2009 12:14 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3009 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 303 of 327 (508401)
05-13-2009 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Huntard
05-11-2009 10:03 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:

Peg, could you please explain to me that how on earth using a calendar using someone's supposed date of birth is in any conceivable way ANY proof that that person actually existed?

in as much as Jesus was such a widely accepted historical person

I didnt mean to imply that the gregorian calender was based ON jesus birth, if thats what it sounded like.

I see what you are saying though. We could ask the same thing about the Julian calendar. I know we are told that Julius Caesar devised it, but how do we even know he was a real person?

So perhaps you're right, we cant really use the use of a calendar to prove someone existed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Huntard, posted 05-11-2009 10:03 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 5:30 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3009 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 304 of 327 (508402)
05-13-2009 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Percy
05-11-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
there is evidence that Jesus was a real person and not just a myth.

Apart from my 'calender' post, there is Josephus the Jewish historian. So he wasnt a christian and cannot be accused of making it up to promote a 'myth'
In his writings about the goings on in Jerusalem he wrote about a certain man, James, who was arrested by the sanhedrin.

quote:
[The high priest Ananus] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others.

This confirms that Jesus, who was called the Christ was a real historical person.

The Roman historian Tacitus, who hated Christianity wrote after about Nero's persecution of the Christians in approx 100 ce.

quote:
Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself.

there is also Justin Martyr who wrote in the middle of the 2nd century about the death of Jesus:

quote:
That these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.
While the official records of Pontius Pilate no longer exist, they must have existed in the 2nd century, otherwise Justin Martyr would not have used them as evidence of what he was saying.

there is also plenty of archeological evidence that the writers, such as Luke, wrote correctly about historical people of their time. In Acts we read that Paul and Barnabas were sent to do missionary work in Cyprus and there met up with a proconsul named Sergius Paulus
In the mid 19th century, excavations in Cyprus uncovered an inscription dating from 55 CE that mentions this very man. Of this, archaeologist G. Ernest Wright says: "It is the one reference we have to this proconsul outside the Bible and it is interesting that Luke gives us correctly his name and title."

this is just a few examples here, there is much more that provides evidence that Jesus was a real person... it should probably be for another thread though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Percy, posted 05-11-2009 10:37 AM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 6:58 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 305 of 327 (508403)
05-13-2009 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Peg
05-13-2009 5:00 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Peg writes:

So perhaps you're right, we cant really use the use of a calendar to prove someone existed.


Yes, ONLY a calendar is not proof positive.

I see what you are saying though. We could ask the same thing about the Julian calendar. I know we are told that Julius Caesar devised it, but how do we even know he was a real person?

There is more evoidence that Julius existed then just that calendar, we have coins with his image, from the correct period (for example).


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Peg, posted 05-13-2009 5:00 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Peg, posted 05-13-2009 5:34 AM Huntard has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3009 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 306 of 327 (508404)
05-13-2009 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Huntard
05-13-2009 5:30 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Huntard writes:

There is more evoidence that Julius existed then just that calendar, we have coins with his image, from the correct period (for example).

that may not have been his image... how do you know that it really was his image? Maybe there was no Julius Caesar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 5:30 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 6:49 AM Peg has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3009 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 307 of 327 (508406)
05-13-2009 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jaywill
05-11-2009 6:34 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Jaywill writes:

Is there a scenario by which someone after the Invasion of Pearl Harbor would write a fradulant history pretending that the event was in the future to the time of writing ?

Could you see someone writing a fake history of New York after the falling of the Twin Towers pretending that such an event was a prophecy to be fulfilled in the future?

What I am hearing is that the Gospel of Mark had to have been written after the temple was destroyed by the Roman army. Such a momentous event is sneakily "ignored" by the writer except for a pretended reference to its future destruction to the events being recorded.

you use really good reasoning here jaywill...well done


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2009 6:34 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3009 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 308 of 327 (508407)
05-13-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by purpledawn
05-12-2009 6:31 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
purpledawn writes:

What makes you think the author of Luke was writing History?

what makes you think he wasnt?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by purpledawn, posted 05-12-2009 6:31 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by purpledawn, posted 05-13-2009 9:19 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 309 of 327 (508409)
05-13-2009 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Peg
05-13-2009 5:34 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Peg writes:

that may not have been his image... how do you know that it really was his image? Maybe there was no Julius Caesar.


Peg, there was a name on the coins as well, can you guess what that name was?

Read the wiki on him, much will become clear.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Peg, posted 05-13-2009 5:34 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Peg, posted 05-14-2009 6:17 AM Huntard has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1537 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 310 of 327 (508410)
05-13-2009 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Theodoric
05-13-2009 12:14 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Thanks for the link. He seems to support critically examining everything, but given the response jaywill provided, he seems to fudge when the critical endangers doctrine or belief.

Miller does show scripture that supports what we've been trying to say concerning prophecy.

Deut 18 - God is VERY explicit-if a prophet EVER misses a prediction, this proves he is not a prophet of YHWH. The test was evidential--pure and simple.

It's all or nothing when it comes to prophecy, not two out of 5 is close enough.

I did notice that Miller's thoughts on Theudas were more could be's than reasonable evidence.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Theodoric, posted 05-13-2009 12:14 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 311 of 327 (508411)
05-13-2009 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Peg
05-13-2009 5:21 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Peg writes:

there is evidence that Jesus was a real person and not just a myth.


Not that I've seen.

Apart from my 'calender' post, there is Josephus the Jewish historian.

You admitted yourself a calendar proofs nothing. Josephus is controversial at the least, and forged at the worst.

So he wasnt a christian and cannot be accused of making it up to promote a 'myth'
In his writings about the goings on in Jerusalem he wrote about a certain man, James, who was arrested by the sanhedrin.

quote:
[The high priest Ananus] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others.

This confirms that Jesus, who was called the Christ was a real historical person.


Actually, the fact that Josephus remained a jew proofs he couldn't have written that.

The Roman historian Tacitus, who hated Christianity wrote after about Nero's persecution of the Christians in approx 100 ce.

quote:
Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself.

You do realize Jesus isn't mentioned anywhere here do you? Christus is a title, not a name.

there is also Justin Martyr who wrote in the middle of the 2nd century about the death of Jesus:

quote:
That these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.

And of course, this is not proof either, first of all it's more then a century after the event, second, there are no known "acts of Pilate".

While the official records of Pontius Pilate no longer exist, they must have existed in the 2nd century, otherwise Justin Martyr would not have used them as evidence of what he was saying.

There could've been, but they could just as easily be forgeries.

this is just a few examples here, there is much more that provides evidence that Jesus was a real person... it should probably be for another thread though.

It should, and there isn't.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Peg, posted 05-13-2009 5:21 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 312 of 327 (508415)
05-13-2009 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Theodoric
05-13-2009 12:14 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
Glenn Miller is very questionable as a source. He is obviously a committed christianist.

This is a ridiculous objection.

Why can't I say Purpledawn is very questionable as a source? Purpledawn is obviously a committed anti-Christian ?

Glen Miller is a compilier of information and well documents his compilations.

Were you expecting me to consult with the American Atheist Society for assistance on your point ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Theodoric, posted 05-13-2009 12:14 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 313 of 327 (508417)
05-13-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by mark24
05-11-2009 12:51 PM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
In the same way that there are no protests of any of the other thousands of self proclaimed mystical god-like-spiritual-I've-got-a-hotline-to-heaven figures means they must exist? The Mormon founder Joseph Smith must be telling the truth? Mohammed was the real deal?

Are you that myopic as to not be able to see what a nonsensical thing you just posted? At least we know Joseph Smith & the likes of Mohammed were real, not so for Jesus.

We are certain that Joseph Smith and Mohammed were real historical figures.

Let's take Joseph Smith for an example since he is the more recent historical figure. Now Mormanism does have its staunch opponents. Yet to date I have not seen any deny that there ever WAS a Joseph Smith.

I would not be surprised that if 1500 years FROM now opponents of Mormonism objected that there was no Joseph Smith. They could say that records of him are mistaken, forged, Mormon conspiracy, etc. etc. etc. Just as some of you anti-Christian faith skeptics do they could do long after Smith's centries have passed.

Where in the first three centries of CE are those protesting that there never existed a Jesus of Nazareth? Such people pop up around the 18th,19th century AD (CE).

Hence you're here.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by mark24, posted 05-11-2009 12:51 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 320 by mark24, posted 05-13-2009 3:09 PM jaywill has responded

AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 314 of 327 (508418)
05-13-2009 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by jaywill
05-13-2009 7:36 AM


The historical Jesus
Perhaps this discussion would be more appropriate at Reconstructing the Historical Jesus or maybe you could propose a new thread?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2009 7:36 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1537 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 315 of 327 (508425)
05-13-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Peg
05-13-2009 6:04 AM


Re: Destruction of Jerusalem 70CE prophecy
quote:
what makes you think he wasnt?
Don't waste a post to ask a question that has already been answered.

I already answered that question with a quote from L. Michael White in the post where I asked the question. Message 293

L. Michael White, Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin.
The gospels are not biographies in the modern sense of the word. Rather, they are stories told in such a way as to evoke a certain image of Jesus for a particular audience. They're trying to convey a message about Jesus, about his significance to the audience and thus we we have to think of them as a kind of preaching, as well as story telling. That's what the gospel, The Good News, is really all about.

If the author of Luke really intended to write factual history, his skills were lacking. His account of Paul's life in Acts differs from what Paul himself claims in his letters. This doesn't bode well for an author who was supposedly Paul's traveling companion according to tradition. Then we have the incorrect usage of Theudas and Judas and yes, I do think they are the same ones mentioned by Josephus because the author of Luke also used "the Egyptian" (Acts 21:38) as Josephus did. (JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171)

If you really want to discuss the authorship or accuracy of the gospel authors, I suggest you start a new thread. This one has reached it's limit and further discussion would be off topic unless you can tie it back to the prophecy in the subtitle.

As far as the 70CE prophecy, the author of Luke kept the same wording as the author of Mark. To be fulfilled it had to have happened within the disciples generation (Mark 13:30) and that includes the coming of Jesus to gather his elect. (Mark 13:26) Once the temple was destroyed the return of Jesus was near, right at the door. (Mark 13:29)

Even the author of Luke keeps the immediacy of God's kingdom. (Luke 21:28)

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

Still waiting 2,000 years later is not a "right at the door" image and rather useless for the people who survived the destruction of the temple.

Before you quote 2 Peter 3:8

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If you wish to use that verse as an explanation, then you would need to show that God did view one day as a thousand years or that God didn't present his messages to humans in values they would understand. If he didn't present his messages in human values, that really messes up your figures concerning the Daniel prophecy.

Bottom line: Either Jesus came after the destruction of the temple and the elect are already gone or the prophecy was not completely fulfilled.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
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