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Author Topic:   Is God of the NT different than God of the OT?
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 271 of 301 (340455)
08-16-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jaywill
08-14-2006 8:58 PM


There is a reason you don't read the Tanakh in light of the New Testament.. the Tankah came first.
You have to read the New Testament in light of the Tanakh, not vis versa.
The misinterpretaion of the Tankah by the New Testament is actually irrelavent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2006 8:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jaywill, posted 08-16-2006 5:16 PM ramoss has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 272 of 301 (340478)
08-16-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by jaywill
08-16-2006 8:22 AM


God, Not Spirit
quote:
In that passage Peter is emphasizing the relationship between Father and Son. My previous explanation of "the Spirit of Christ" used by Peter proves that he considers Christ's Spirit as God's Spirit in the Old Testament.
But this topic is not about the spirit. It is about God as a being. I don't see that Paul considered Jesus and God to be the same being or that he considered Jesus to be a god.
Unfortunately Paul is not the author of Acts (80-130CE) and had passed away before it was written. As I said in Message 253: Paul's authentic writings were the earliest and don't seem to put Jesus as God. Any actual mention of God in the earlier writings seems to stay in line with the God of Abraham or the OT. Even the teachings attributed to Jesus seem to be in line with the Jewish teachings of the time.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by jaywill, posted 08-16-2006 8:22 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 08-16-2006 6:03 PM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 273 of 301 (340572)
08-16-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by ramoss
08-16-2006 8:59 AM


Ramoss,
There is a reason you don't read the Tanakh in light of the New Testament.. the Tankah came first.
You have to read the New Testament in light of the Tanakh, not vis versa.
The misinterpretaion of the Tankah by the New Testament is actually irrelavent.
I think one has to settle the question with oneself whether one believes that the overall Author of both testaments is God or not. If one feels that one testament is written under the inspiration of God but the other is not, that will lead to incomplete understanding of His will and even misunderstanding of His will.
I came to the Bible with a big filter supposing that there were some important spiritual things contained therein. When I read on my own I first read the gospels. The person of Jesus won my trust. Through the gospels then I expanded my reading to include the Tanahk with an implicit trust for the teaching of Jesus. Eventually, though I can't say that Jesus commented on everything in the Old Testament, I developed an attitude that what was good enough for Him must be good enough.
Then I came to trust His apostles. I reasoned that God must be inspiring them also to produce writings recognized and placed into the canon. This is how my reading of the 66 books of the Bible developed from skepticism to faith, gradually building on the Person of Jesus.
I don't say this is the only way to go. It is the way I came. I believe that the whole 66 books are under the divine inpsiration of God. Any kind of attitude that the New Testament is some kind of error prone and faulty commentary on the Hebrew Bible will not sit right with me. I think Colossians and Romans is equally inspiried from God as Genesis and Exodus.
To me the whole book is the miraculous divine product of God - from Genesis to Revelation.
Furthermore I think that God transcends time. I definitely see matters latters clarified hinted at in earlier writings timewise. To put it in the vanacular, with God time is a joke. We are dealing with the mind of a God whose scope of foreknowledge and wisdom is infinite.
Before He brings Israel into Canaan, centries before He foretells Abraham of the captivity of the Hebrews for 400 years. He says in essense "I can't bring you into the land of Canaan yet because the sinners need another 400 years before they're bad enough for me to have to judge them".
With this kind of overview of human history by God we have to leave room for understanding either writings in the light of either writings. But I think if you are a Jew it might be harder for you to accept this.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ramoss, posted 08-16-2006 8:59 AM ramoss has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 274 of 301 (340585)
08-16-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by purpledawn
08-16-2006 11:07 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
Pdawn,
But this topic is not about the spirit.
Hold it right there. I did not say that now the topic is about the Spirit. I am refering to "the Spirit of Christ" used by the Apostle Peter to link the God of the Old Testament with Christ in the New Testament. That is a valid contribution to the topic.
It is about God as a being.
You perhaps don't believe that God is a Spirit. Well I regard the Spirit of God as virtually God. From Genesis 1:2 the brooding Spirit of God upon the face of the deep I regard as inseperably connected to God's Being.
I don't see that Paul considered Jesus and God to be the same being or that he considered Jesus to be a god.
Paul teaches that in the new covenant age the Spirit of God is the same Person as the Spirit of Christ is the same Person as Christ. He indwells the believers in Christ. He indwells them as "the Spirit of life" (Rom. 8:2) bringing in the spontaneous working of His life as a law regulating the disciple's conduct. That is if they learn to walk by the Spirit and to set the mind on the spirit. If they submit to be led by the Spirit they grow and mature into sons of God.
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is no of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you" (Romans 8:9-11)
Paul is taking to disciples of Jesus. Paul is talking about an indwelling Person, an indwelling living Person who dwells in them. If this Person indwells them then they are His. If this Person does not indwell them they are not of Him - "Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him"
The Spirit of Christ is the title used interchangeably with the Spirit of God. And the Spirit of Christ is used interchangeably with Christ. He goes from one title to the next in one breath. The Spirit of God in the believers is the Spirit of Christ in the believers is the Christ Himself in the believers.
This is why I wrote that the New Testament God is the Old Testament God prepared to be imparted into man as man's divine life - "He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also GIVE LIFE to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you"
Paul tells us elsewhere that "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) The man Jesus became in a form that He could give the divine life of God. He comes in the New Testament age to indwell the saved and give them the divine and eternal life.
This Spirit of God Who is the Spirit of Christ and Who is "Christ" is also called by Paul in verse 2 "the Spirit of life".
"There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death."
What the Apostle Paul is talking about is exactly the new covenant that Jeremiah prophesied of - "And this is the covenant ... I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people"
He will be their God according to the inward indwelling of His own uncreated life imparted into the human spirit. Since the relationship is so intimate, subjective, and personal God says "And they will no longer teach, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for all of them will know Me, from the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more."
The law that God imparts into the inward parts of the redeemed is the law of His own life. It is Himself joined to man. It is Himself extended to man. The sinner's iniquity has been totally taken away by the redemptive work of Christ. And man can be enlivened and reborn because he is now in a righteous position as a believer in Christ - "But if Christ is in you ... the spirit [human spirit] is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10)
I admit that in no verse in Romans 8 does Paul say "Christ is the Old Testament God". And in verse 34 He has Christ at the right hand of God interceding for His believers. So I would not press the Christ is God to the point that we could not see a distinction between God and Christ. I said distinction here. I did not say a separation.
While Paul has Christ as a distinct One at the right hand of God interceding for the believers in CHrist in verse 34, he also has Christ indwelling the disciples in verse 10. And as the indwelling Christ He is absolutely the same as "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead".
So they inseperable and One lives within the Other. To get a handle on this mysterious relationship the theologians came up with the word Trinity or Triune God - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Paul is not the author of Acts (80-130CE) and had passed away before it was written. As I said in Message 253:
Luke is the author of Acts. And I believe that Luke accurately quoted Paul as to what he told the Ephesian elders in Acts 20. I didn't say Paul wrote the book of Acts. Luke quotes him there.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by purpledawn, posted 08-16-2006 11:07 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2006 7:40 AM jaywill has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 275 of 301 (340748)
08-17-2006 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by jaywill
08-16-2006 6:03 PM


Re: God, Not Spirit
But we are not discussing the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit may be the same all through the Christian Bible, but that doesn't address if God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT or whether Jesus is God.
Jesus can be filled with God's Holy Spirit, but that doesn't make him God, just as it doesn't make Paul God if Paul is filled with the Holy Spirit.
If Paul considers the spirit of Christ to be the Holy Spirit of God, it still doesn't make Jesus God.
Romans 8:9-11
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
The Holy Spirit is from God, not Jesus. Having the spirit living in us, does not make us God and does not make Jesus God.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not make anyone God.
quote:
Luke is the author of Acts. And I believe that Luke accurately quoted Paul as to what he told the Ephesian elders in Acts 20. I didn't say Paul wrote the book of Acts. Luke quotes him there.
I didn't say you did, but I'm trying to get you to remember that I'm looking at the reality of the text and I consider the author of Acts to be unknown. That is how I was addressing this topic with Ramoss.
Just as sometimes I try to address the issue understanding how you view the text (2 Peter), you also need to understand where I'm coming from if you want me to understand what you are saying.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 08-16-2006 6:03 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jaywill, posted 08-17-2006 10:14 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 276 of 301 (340779)
08-17-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by purpledawn
08-17-2006 7:40 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
But we are not discussing the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit may be the same all through the Christian Bible, but that doesn't address if God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT or whether Jesus is God.
Purpledawn, Please don't assume to dictate to me what I am or am not discussing. If you are not discussing the Holy Spirit that's fine. In this discussion on "Is God of the NT different from God of the OT" I am including some comments about the Spirit of God / Spirit of Christ which I think are important to the discussion.
I don't think that I need to have your permission to account the matter of the Spirit of God as relevant to the discussion.
Jesus can be filled with God's Holy Spirit, but that doesn't make him God, just as it doesn't make Paul God if Paul is filled with the Holy Spirit.
That was not my point. My main point about God in the Old and New Testaments is that Peter refered to the Spirit of Christ when speaking about the Spirit of God in the Old Testament prophets. And Paul wrote similiarly in Romans.
If Paul considers the spirit of Christ to be the Holy Spirit of God, it still doesn't make Jesus God.
Your usage of the small s for "spirit of Christ" means to me "the [human] spirit of Christ". Some of us take care in our capitalization or non-capitalization of the "s" thoughout the whole Bible. In the Romans 8:9-11 passage I regard "Spirit of God" and "Spirit of Christ" to refer to the Third "Person" of the Triune God -
"Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt.28:19)
If you have no belief in the Trinity of Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God, some of us do. And literally Matthew 29:19 is saying that the name (not plural names), but the singular name of God is "Father - Son - Holy Spirit". So we believe God is the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit - one Triune Person with one name in this case.
If not to you, to many of us "the Spirit of God" is God the Holy Spirit. And Peter and Paul use the term interchangeably with the Spirit of Christ. When Ananias and his wife lied to the Holy Spirit Peter said that they lied to God in Acts chapter five. So some of us definitely hold God to be the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of God.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not make anyone God.
That was not my point. But here again, though it is a whole different discussion, the indwelling of the Spirit of God as life to man does make man God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. This would be another topic about divination or deification which is a belief held by many of the Christian church.
The Firstborn Son becomes the first of many brothers. So by God's impartation of His life into His people and His mingling Himself with them He does make them God in a very real sense. He Fathers them into His family as kin with His life and His nature but not His Headship and unique position as the Source of divine life.
So some of us believe that salvation is also that we are being made God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead as the Unique source of worship or the Source of divine life. This is another topic though.
I didn't say you did, but I'm trying to get you to remember that I'm looking at the reality of the text and I consider the author of Acts to be unknown. That is how I was addressing this topic with Ramoss.
Okay, excuse me then if I interfered with your discussion with Ramoss. As for me I take Acts 1:1,55 and Luke 24:51 to properly identify the author of Acts to be Paul's companion Luke, the same author of the gospel after his name.
Just as sometimes I try to address the issue understanding how you view the text (2 Peter), you also need to understand where I'm coming from if you want me to understand what you are saying.
Okay. I will receive that bit of criticism and try to be careful in the future.
By the way, I had a Greek scholar tell me that he found Peter's style of Greek to be too suffisticated for a relatively uneducated fisherman. He also had a hard time believing that Peter wrote one of those letters. However, I do not have a hard time believing it because of my Christian church experience. We brothers often do things in coordination as a team. In effect the team gets the credit rather than the individual.
It would not surprise me in the least that one who was more literate and educated in Greek assisted Peter in the writing of his letters. Why not? They coordinated together. They believed in what he was doing. They wanted to help and serve God also with what talents they had to offer.
So, big deal. Probably someone who wrote well helped Peter to put his ideas down in well written Greek. And we still are benefitting from that inspired letter today as believers in Jesus Christ. God gets the glory.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by purpledawn, posted 08-17-2006 7:40 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ringo, posted 08-17-2006 11:44 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 278 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 7:48 AM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 277 of 301 (340801)
08-17-2006 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jaywill
08-17-2006 10:14 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
jaywill writes:
Some of us take care in our capitalization or non-capitalization of the "s" thoughout the whole Bible.
We're peas in a pod, ol' buddy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jaywill, posted 08-17-2006 10:14 AM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 278 of 301 (341014)
08-18-2006 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jaywill
08-17-2006 10:14 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
quote:
Purpledawn, Please don't assume to dictate to me what I am or am not discussing.
By "we" I mean the thread, not you and me specifically. As I said in Message 272: But this topic is not about the spirit.
quote:
That was not my point. My main point about God in the Old and New Testaments is that Peter refered to the Spirit of Christ when speaking about the Spirit of God in the Old Testament prophets. And Paul wrote similiarly in Romans.
I do not consider the author of 2 Peter (100-160CE) to be one of the disciples, which follows with what I said in Message 249: The focus of the NT was about Jesus, who was not considered to be God by his own disciples, IMO.
Exodus 31:1-3
Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,
Bezalel doesn't become God. So Jesus had the Spirit of God within him, but that didn't make him God. So Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ the same as the Spirit of God, again the Holy Spirit may be the same in both cases, but the Holy Spirit is from God not Jesus. Having the Holy Spirit within him (Jesus) doesn't make Jesus God, just as having the Spirit of Christ within one, doesn't make one Christ. All you've shown is that the Holy Spirit shows up in the OT and the NT. How does any of that show that the God of the OT is the same or different than the God of the NT? How does any of that address what I was saying?
quote:
Your usage of the small s for "spirit of Christ" means to me "the [human] spirit of Christ".
All it means is that the caps key didn't kick in.
quote:
If you have no belief in the Trinity of Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God, some of us do. And literally Matthew 29:19 is saying that the name (not plural names), but the singular name of God is "Father - Son - Holy Spirit". So we believe God is the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit - one Triune Person with one name in this case.
Now see I read: ...baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), in the name of the Son (Jesus), and in the name of the Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit).
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
IOW, baptize by the authority of all three. Using the singular in a list like that is not unusual. I don't feel that the author was making them one entity.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jaywill, posted 08-17-2006 10:14 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2006 10:06 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 280 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2006 11:29 AM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 279 of 301 (341039)
08-18-2006 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by purpledawn
08-18-2006 7:48 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
Purpledawn,
By "we" I mean the thread, not you and me specifically. As I said in Message 272: But this topic is not about the spirit.
This tendency to play the "off topic" card whenever someone has a point that people don't like is beginning to wear thin.
I don't nearly complain as much about people's "off topic" remarks as much as everyone else around here.
That was not my point. My main point about God in the Old and New Testaments is that Peter refered to the Spirit of Christ when speaking about the Spirit of God in the Old Testament prophets. And Paul wrote similiarly in Romans.
I do not consider the author of 2 Peter (100-160CE) to be one of the disciples, which follows with what I said in Message 249: The focus of the NT was about Jesus, who was not considered to be God by his own disciples, IMO.
I would not put it that way. I would say that in your case you notice a lot of things are said about Jesus. Which of course is true.
I think that what you regard as "focus" in the New Testament is largely subjective.
Exodus 31:1-3
Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,
Okay, that's a good point. And I will address that good point in a little while latter.
But I will not react by saying "the spirit filling Uri is not the topic". I will not resort to an "off topic" defense. Stay tuned for my response to that aspect of the topic discussion.
Bezalel doesn't become God. So Jesus had the Spirit of God within him, but that didn't make him God. So Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ the same as the Spirit of God, again the Holy Spirit may be the same in both cases, but the Holy Spirit is from God not Jesus.
Can you think of any New Testament verses which indicate that the Holy Spirit is from Jesus? I can.
Instead of me "quote mining" I will first ask you.
Having the Holy Spirit within him (Jesus) doesn't make Jesus God, just as having the Spirit of Christ within one, doesn't make one Christ. All you've shown is that the Holy Spirit shows up in the OT and the NT. How does any of that show that the God of the OT is the same or different than the God of the NT? How does any of that address what I was saying?
If there is a mountain, and the OT says "the mountain of God" and the New Testament says "the mountain of Christ" are we not justified in surmising that God and Christ, Christ and God, are being used as two names for the same Person? The mountain not being God is secondary. The mountain being the possession of one "God" in the OT and the posession of one "Christ" in the NT could conceivably argue for God being Christ in the NT and Christ being God in the OT.
If the Old Testament says "the Spirit of God" and the New says "the Spirit of Christ" is it plausible that one could assume that God and Christ as two names used alternately for the same Person?
I think the answer is yes. Now one may say, "But maybe not". I agree - "maybe not". One may also say "That is not enough to show that God is Christ". To that I would say that that may be arguable. But it is an additional piece of accumulating evidence.
Take the matter of the Word in John 1:1. The Word was God. And the Word became flesh.
Now for centries Christians have understood that John intended to communicate that the God that the Word WAS was the same God as throughout the Old Testament. So the Word becoming flesh links the New Testament incarnate Word with the God of the Old Testament.
Is He the same God? He's the same God incarnate as a man. To that degree the Word who became flesh is the same God.
I suppose from this point one might argue "Well that is what John says in the New Testament. The Old Testament doesn't say He's the same God." Firstly, I would answer that it is difficult to make the same comparison because the New Testament was not there to EXIST for the Old Testament to say so.
But secondly, I would argue that what the Old Testament says about God's doings and promises in the future (when a NT would conceivably exist) indicate that Christ is a strong candidate for the Person of God incarnated as is promised in the Old Testament.
For example - Isaiah 9:6. The child born is called the Mighty God. The son given is to be called the Eternal Father. How can a child who is a creature - a creation of the Creator, be the Mighty God? How can a son who is begotten be the Father of Eternity?
I may not be able to answer HOW. I don't know how. It is hard to explain how. In my human limitation perhaps it is impossible for me to explain how. However, I have a candidate in human history who very much talked and acted that way. His name is Jesus Christ. He talked and acted and spoke like a born child who is the Mighty God and a given Son who is the Eternal Father.
My bet is the He is the ultimate referant of that prophetic utterance. If so the Mighty God of the Old Testament and the Eternal Father of the Old Testament became a man - a mingling of humanity and divinity - a God - Man.
Of the 66 biblical books 27 are totally devoted to the premise. I've been convinced.
Your usage of the small s for "spirit of Christ" means to me "the [human] spirit of Christ".
All it means is that the caps key didn't kick in.
If you have no belief in the Trinity of Father - Son - Holy Spirit as God, some of us do. And literally Matthew 29:19 is saying that the name (not plural names), but the singular name of God is "Father - Son - Holy Spirit". So we believe God is the Father, God is the Son, and God is the Holy Spirit - one Triune Person with one name in this case.
Now see I read: ...baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), in the name of the Son (Jesus), and in the name of the Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit).
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
IOW, baptize by the authority of all three. Using the singular in a list like that is not unusual. I don't feel that the author was making them one entity.
My version translates "into". And "into" the name would mean more than just "by the authority" of the name. It would mean the name is the sphere and the realm into which the people are being immersed. The name denotes the Person. The name denotes the reality of the Person.
So "into the name" means into the realm and into the sphere of the living Being that the name means - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
When Paul writes the following he means to us that the readers are living and dwelling in the very realm and sphere of the living Trinity - a realm of divine life and divine personality:
" The grace of Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all" ( 2 Cor. 13:14)
This is very real and subjective. It is akin to being immersed into the name of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit Person of the Triune God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 7:48 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 3:20 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 280 of 301 (341061)
08-18-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by purpledawn
08-18-2006 7:48 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
Purpledawn,
Bezalel doesn't become God. So Jesus had the Spirit of God within him, but that didn't make him God. So Paul refers to the Spirit of Christ the same as the Spirit of God, again the Holy Spirit may be the same in both cases, but the Holy Spirit is from God not Jesus. Having the Holy Spirit within him (Jesus) doesn't make Jesus God, just as having the Spirit of Christ within one, doesn't make one Christ. All you've shown is that the Holy Spirit shows up in the OT and the NT. How does any of that show that the God of the OT is the same or different than the God of the NT? How does any of that address what I was saying?
Before I answer this could you please help me?
What words did I write that gave you the impression that I was saying that Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit makes Him God?
That doesn't sound like an arguement that I have ever or would ever make. Please quote me where I put forth that kind of argument about Christ being the God of the Old Testament. Otherwise I am afraid that you are asking me to defend something that I may not believe myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 7:48 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 2:48 PM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 281 of 301 (341105)
08-18-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by jaywill
08-18-2006 11:29 AM


Re: God, Not Spirit
quote:
What words did I write that gave you the impression that I was saying that Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit makes Him God?
Message 265
The Spirit of God = "The Spirit of Christ" makes Christ God. This invalidates any argument that Peter did not regard Christ as God.
Message 274
Paul teaches that in the new covenant age the Spirit of God is the same Person as the Spirit of Christ is the same Person as Christ.
This Spirit of God Who is the Spirit of Christ and Who is "Christ" is also called by Paul in verse 2 "the Spirit of life".
Message 276
That was not my point. But here again, though it is a whole different discussion, the indwelling of the Spirit of God as life to man does make man God in life and in nature but not in the Godhead. This would be another topic about divination or deification which is a belief held by many of the Christian church.
If not to you, to many of us "the Spirit of God" is God the Holy Spirit. And Peter and Paul use the term interchangeably with the Spirit of Christ. When Ananias and his wife lied to the Holy Spirit Peter said that they lied to God in Acts chapter five. So some of us definitely hold God to be the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2006 11:29 AM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 282 of 301 (341118)
08-18-2006 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by jaywill
08-18-2006 10:06 AM


Off Topic
quote:
This tendency to play the "off topic" card whenever someone has a point that people don't like is beginning to wear thin.
Just as it is wearing thin this tendency to say that people play the "off topic" card whenever they don't like what someone is saying.
quote:
I think that what you regard as "focus" in the New Testament is largely subjective.
Which means what in regard to this topic?
quote:
Can you think of any New Testament verses which indicate that the Holy Spirit is from Jesus? I can.
Given the way you read the Bible, I would say you would choose Acts 2:38. I would disagree. Otherwise I see no other verse that could be miscontrued as such.
quote:
But I will not react by saying "the spirit filling Uri is not the topic".
I would hope not, since you put the Spirit on the table.
John is another later writing by an unknown author, so the author is not one of the disciples.
Message 253 describes my position.
Paul's authentic writings were the earliest and don't seem to put Jesus as God. Any actual mention of God in the earlier writings seems to stay in line with the God of Abraham or the OT. Even the teachings attributed to Jesus seem to be in line with the Jewish teachings of the time.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2006 10:06 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2006 3:50 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 284 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2006 3:58 PM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 283 of 301 (341126)
08-18-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by purpledawn
08-18-2006 3:20 PM


Re: Off Topic
Purpledawn,
Given the way you read the Bible, I would say you would choose Acts 2:38. I would disagree. Otherwise I see no other verse that could be miscontrued as such.
I gave my reasons why I think "His own blood" refers to "God" about 8 words previous rather than "Lord Jesus" four verses previous. I saw no alternative rational from you which was more convincing. If *shrug* and go on is supposed to impress me with your better reasons, it didn't.
The Spirit coming from Christ is indicated in John 20:22 - "And when He has said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit"
That is a pretty graphic picture of Christ as the Source of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is His very breath coming out of His very life.
Even more so Christ as the Source of the Holy Spirit is First Corinthians 15:45 - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit"
Here you don't just have Jesus sending the Spirit or breathing out the Holy Spirit but Him turning into the Holy Spirit and becomming the Holy Spirit.
All this affirms that the three of the Trinity live within each other and cannot be seperated though they are distinct.
You didn't answer my question about what I wrote argued that Christ is God because He was filled with the Holy Spirit. Was it subtly buried in one of your wisecracks or just ignored?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 3:20 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 6:11 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 6:35 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 284 of 301 (341129)
08-18-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by purpledawn
08-18-2006 3:20 PM


Re: Off Topic
Paul's authentic writings were the earliest and don't seem to put Jesus as God. Any actual mention of God in the earlier writings seems to stay in line with the God of Abraham or the OT. Even the teachings attributed to Jesus seem to be in line with the Jewish teachings of the time.
List what is in your view "Paul's authentic writings" please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 3:20 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by purpledawn, posted 08-18-2006 6:12 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 285 of 301 (341134)
08-18-2006 4:06 PM


Even the teachings attributed to Jesus seem to be in line with the Jewish teachings of the time.
This is a game of deciding what in the New Testament the skeptic agrees with and then labelling that "the teachings attributed to Jesus".
In other words "Jesus and I, of course have always been in agreement. Those disciples and apostles messed up his teachings. But the real authentic teachings of Jesus, Well! I couldn't have said it better myself."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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