It seems, Jaywill, that Rrhain may have helped lead the thread off topic. But there is very, very little in
Message 170 of yours that is near the topic of "Death before the 'Fall'?"
You'll have to practice watching where the discussion is going. We all have significant trouble staying on topic.
You're post 170 was a giant ramble with about 6 or 10 places to spin off into long off topic posting storms.
You might take anyone of them and PNT them if you want to discuss them.