Death before the 'Fall'?

I think this is something that needs to be cleared up.Many posters here claim that before the Fall there was no death on Earth. I have studied the Bible quite a bit, and I really do not believe that the Bible suggests this at all. If anything, the Bible suggests that there was death before the Fall since God threatened Adam with death then surely Adam would have to know what death was!I'd like to see some biblical texts that support the idea of no death before the Fall, or is it just another gimmick?Bible study please admins.Brian.

Why would God threaten Adam with something that Adam would have no idea about?I know Yahweh isn't exaclty the cleverest god going about, but even He would surely know that His victim would have to know what He was talking about.Don't you think if God said to Adam, "eat that fruit and you will surely graxficilate", that Adam would ask what 'graxficilate' means?Brian.

Hi F, I have no problem with there being no human death before the Fall in Christian theology. But, I have been told by many Christians that NOTHING died before the Fall. This is what I am asking for clarification about. If there was no death at all then surely these people must have support for that belief in the Bible, I just don't see where they are getting it from, as I do not see any text that even hints at this. I do see a fair bit of text that contradicts this belief, the eating of plants for example.Brian.

I thought you were a literalist?Didn't Moses write Genesis under the direction of God? You would think that God would know that plants were alive wouldn't you? Irrespective of what the Bible writers or church thought, plants are alive, and humans and animals ate them, so this no death before the Fall is a lie. And had nothing to do with the ecosystem? Adam certainly had a lot of pleasure with animals, really icky that one. You do know that this is a metaphor? In the end, we won't be eating anything in God's spiritual kingdom.Brian.

I think it would have to be, otherwise Adam could have cut his own head off and still lived Indeed, he must have seen animals eating other animals, even insects being eaten by predators. It is pretty sad though that God kept the 'sentence' going right through their descendants. As I said before, how just is it that I should be put in prison becuase my great grandfather robbed a bank? The Christian concept of original sin is so flawed that I really don't know how it has lasted this long. The Eden myths certainly helped ancient Israelite societies to come to some sort of understanding about their world in a pre scientific time. But, as humans and ideas have evolved, I think it is time to move out of the naive world of the ancients and put these stories soundly into the literature shelf.Brian.This message has been edited by Brian, 01-01-2006 04:38 AM

Hi Rrain, good to see you again. However, this was after the Fall, so they MAY have been immortal.The possible scenario is this. Man created immortal, man disobeys God and eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man thus becomes like God, God takes away their immortality, God fears that they get their immortality back by eating from the tree of life, so God kicks them out of paradise.It is a nice wee philosophical tale. Explians why there is suffering in this world, and why we have to die.Bugger all about spiritual death though, that is just an apologetic to explain away an error in the tale.Brian.

It isn’t found explicitly in the story, I was talking from my old church angle, where this story is not taken in isolation from the rest of the Bible. But I DO agree that taken by itself the Eden myth doesn’t explicitly claim that Adam was immortal when he was created. Although I do think it implies that there was a possibility that Adam COULD become immortal, which is not my old church’s angle ! God had placed the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of Eden.Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." God hadn’t forbidden Adam from eating the fruit from the tree of life, does this mean that Adam was already immortal and thus it wouldn’t matter if he ate from that tree, or does it mean that Adam would, some time in the future, be allowed to eat from the tree of life and gain immortality, or does it mean something else?It may be that when we consider that Adam was to die when he ate the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil that the opportunity to become immortal was removed, perhaps God would only have allowed Adam and Eve immortality if they remained innocent? Perhaps if they had not disobeyed God at the first temptation then God would have let them eat from the tree of life. It is guesswork, if taking the Eden myth in isolation from the rest of the Bible.My own take on the Eden myth is that it was constructed by philosophers to provide answers to ultimate questions. Thing such as, why do people die, why is there a natural enmity between man and snakes, why is childbirth painful, why is life so difficult (agrarian society), things like that. See, this is where I have a little problem, and you know I am not one to swallow any old Bible tale, but I have difficulty in accepting that the author (s) of the Eden myth were so lax as to have Adam live for hundreds of years after the day he ate the fruit. The Old Testament was written by very intelligent people, it is difficult to imagine that they wouldn’t see such an obvious mistake. So, what else could be going on? I think it could be that the opportunity to gain eternal life was taken away because it is only after the Fall that God says:Gen 3:21-22 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." Adam wasn’t forbidden to eat from the tree of life before the Fall, it was only fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that was forbidden, so something must have happened to panic God. It looks clear that God panics when Adam and Eve learn what good and evil is and He immediately protects the tree of life just in case they eat from it. I would say that this would be a good argument for Adam and Eve being mortal when they were created because God’s panic implies that once they become immortal then they would stay immortal.So, in a sense, Adam did die that day, and remember that yom doesn’t have to mean a 24 hour period. Adam may have ”died’ because the opportunity to gain immortality was removed. It may be that death was the only real deterrent that God had to threaten them with, isn’t the death penalty supposed to be the ultimate deterrent?It does state that God was concerned because they would became gods like Him, then who would worship Yahweh?Brian.

Apparently, it is only those with knowledge of good and evil who were banned from eating from the tree of life. Now, if only God was so stupid and allowed the garden to be washed away in His Flood, we could have a wee nibble of the tree of life.Brian.

Why do I need biblical evidence for this?Do you have any evidence that suggests that at one time all life on Earth were veggies? As Rrhain said, lions are carnivores, do you have evidence that suggests there was a time when they weren't?Anyway, the Bible doesn't say that there were no carnivores before the Fall, it isn't even implied.Brian.

Hi Ray,Happy New Year to you. Yes, I have heard this unsubstantiated claim from Christians before. What I am asking for is scriptural references to support it. Where does the Bible say God killed the animal(s) that Adam and Eve's clothes were made from?Brian.

Hi,Yep, I knew about that verse, but, as has been pointed out, it doesn't state that God killed the animals that the clothes were made out of. The animals could have died of natural causes, or a predator may have killed them, it does not say God killed anything, you are adding to the text. There is also the option of God speaking the clothes into existence.So, we still have no scriptural support for death before the Fall, it is becoming more and more likely that this is yet another fundy gimmick.Brian.

Being divinely inspired and being a vessel through which God simply wrote down His word is not the same thing.Being inspired just means that the authors were motivated by their belief in God. People from all walks of life are inspirational to others, the members of the Civil Rights Movement, for example were inspired by Martin Luther King.This is different to the second claim you make, that God essentially wrote the Bible by using people as scribes. If this were the case then there really wouldn't be a need for any inspiration.Also, I don't believe that the Bible claims that God wrote it by using people as intermediaries, if you have some references that disagree I'd be happy to look at them.Finally, I agree with Voltaire, to make God the author of the Bible would mean that you make God into a being that is essentially very poor at science, history and geography.Brian.

You do yourself an injustice, you seem to be a much nicer chap than Jesus was.I can't imagine you deliberately misleading people, or using violence.Brian.

Life wasn’t breathed into women either, guess they aren’t technically alive either?Genesis 2:21-22 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. You mean a ”very good’ world? Sounds like hell to me.As to Jesus ”sacrifice’, it was hardly a big deal was it?Brian.

But, neither Adam nor Eve were born.Brian.