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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
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Message 151 of 230 (286221)
02-13-2006 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Garrett
02-13-2006 2:52 PM


Off Topic Alert
Garrett and Jazzns,

You're drifting outside the Garden.

Please bring your discussion back into the realm of the OP: Death Before the Fall.

Please direct any comments concerning this post to the moderation link below.

Thank you


Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    Garrett
    Member (Idle past 4508 days)
    Posts: 111
    From: Dallas, TX
    Joined: 02-10-2006


    Message 152 of 230 (286227)
    02-13-2006 3:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 138 by ReverendDG
    02-12-2006 10:33 PM


    Did God Lie?
    I don't view this as a lie. Any truth can have one interpretation that is false. That just means the interpretation is false, not the truth. I'd agree with interpretation that holds that text to mean essentially "Once you eat that fruit, you'll surely die". Meaning, there is no escape, the enemy has entered the building. Do you believe weathermen are lying when they tell you what time sunset is on a given day? After all, we know the sun doesn't actually move around the Earth.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 138 by ReverendDG, posted 02-12-2006 10:33 PM ReverendDG has responded

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    Garrett
    Member (Idle past 4508 days)
    Posts: 111
    From: Dallas, TX
    Joined: 02-10-2006


    Message 153 of 230 (286229)
    02-13-2006 3:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 139 by Rrhain
    02-13-2006 12:01 AM


    Interpretive Differences
    I disagree with your interpretation of Genesis 2:17. To say that God lied is to know 100% that there is only 1 correct interpretation of the text and that you have it. Just for fun I'll quote it once more:

    Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Think of it this way. The day before they ate the fruit, they surely weren't going to die (future tense), ever. The day they did eat the fruit, they surely were going to die (still future tense), no matter what. Your thinking in terms of someone who always has known that they will die eventually. Adam and Eve didn't have that understanding. God is here conveying the concept that once this act has been committed, the death is inescapable....regardless of when the eventuality takes place.


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    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 8868
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003
    Member Rating: 7.2


    Message 154 of 230 (286231)
    02-13-2006 3:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by Garrett
    02-13-2006 3:25 PM


    The Tree of Life
    Think of it this way. The day before they ate the fruit, they surely weren't going to die (future tense), ever.

    I'm not a Biblical scholar so excuse me for jumping in with a dumb question but:
    What is the other tree about?


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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 1799 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 155 of 230 (286241)
    02-13-2006 4:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by Garrett
    02-13-2006 3:25 PM


    Capable of Dying
    quote:
    God is here conveying the concept that once this act has been committed, the death is inescapable
    So then the possibility of death did exist before the fall. It was just escapable by eating from the Tree of Life. If it did not exist then there was nothing to escape.

    Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created, otherwise God wouldn't have needed creatures to multiply before A&E ate from the wrong tree. They needed to replace themselves.

    Genesis 1:21
    God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good .
    1:22
    God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply , and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."

    They were all subject to death. Mortal.

    Bird flies into a tree. Dead.
    Elephant steps on a mouse. Dead (the mouse, not the elephant)

    Replacements were apparently needed. Life is dangerous.

    This message has been edited by purpledawn, 02-13-2006 04:33 PM


    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
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    iano
    Member (Idle past 283 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 156 of 230 (286268)
    02-13-2006 6:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by Garrett
    02-13-2006 3:25 PM


    Do and die
    I agree Garrett. I think Rrhain is missing this point in adhering so adamantly to (albeit understandably) "the day you eat of...you will surely die". One might as easily say to the child in a womb. "On the day you are conceived you will surely die"

    Adam conceived something in himself that day. He conceived sin within himself. He contracted the cancer of sin. And death was assured because that is what sin does. Kill. Always.


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    iano
    Member (Idle past 283 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 157 of 230 (286271)
    02-13-2006 7:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 155 by purpledawn
    02-13-2006 4:32 PM


    Capable of Dying
    purpledawn writes:

    Death is a natural part of existence, and has been since from the moment the first human beings were created, otherwise God wouldn't have needed creatures to multiply before A&E ate from the wrong tree. They needed to replace themselves.

    quote:
    3. The False Dilemma - Two choices are given when in actuality there are more choices possible.

    In fact you gave only one. But there are other reasons possible to "increase in number" other than to replace. Most people I know don't have more than one child with a view to replacing numbers - they do it cos the love kids.

    There is a touch of...

    quote:
    2. Begging the Question - ‘this fallacy occurs when a disputant uses his conclusion as one of the premises employed to establish [his] conclusion.’ [5]

    ...too

    This threads purpose is to examine whether death before the fall was indeed possible. Not to asssert it

    This message has been edited by iano, 14-Feb-2006 12:07 AM


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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 1799 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 158 of 230 (286295)
    02-13-2006 8:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 157 by iano
    02-13-2006 7:06 PM


    Re: Capable of Dying
    quote:
    But there are other reasons possible to "increase in number" other than to replace. Most people I know don't have more than one child with a view to replacing numbers - they do it cos the love kids.

    Talking about critters, not people.

    Why else do animals have offspring other than to continue the species?
    If animals couldn’t die, why did God create them with reproductive abilities?

    quote:
    This threads purpose is to examine whether death before the fall was indeed possible. Not to asssert it.

    Actually the OP states:

    I'd like to see some biblical texts that support the idea of no death before the Fall, or is it just another gimmick?

    The originator feels that the Bible supports there was death before the fall.

    My text supports death. Show me text that shows my assertion is wrong.

    It is clear from the text that the fruit from the Tree of Life could give the eater immortality.

    If Adam and Eve already possessed immortality upon creation, why was the tree of life there?

    If Adam and Eve already possessed immortality, why did they need nourishment?


    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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    ReverendDG
    Member (Idle past 2452 days)
    Posts: 1119
    From: Topeka,kansas
    Joined: 06-06-2005


    Message 159 of 230 (286335)
    02-14-2006 1:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 152 by Garrett
    02-13-2006 3:16 PM


    Re: Did God Lie?
    I don't view this as a lie. Any truth can have one interpretation that is false. That just means the interpretation is false, not the truth. I'd agree with interpretation that holds that text to mean essentially "Once you eat that fruit, you'll surely die". Meaning, there is no escape, the enemy has entered the building. Do you believe weathermen are lying when they tell you what time sunset is on a given day? After all, we know the sun doesn't actually move around the Earth

    God is lying, to keep them from eatting of the tree to protect them, why do you say that you agree with the words but say its not what it meant? it doesn't say once you eat of it you will die, it says once you eat from the tree you will die the day you eat from it - ie:now or within the timeframe of a day
    they are mortal to begin with, why have a tree of life if they wern't?

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    Garrett
    Member (Idle past 4508 days)
    Posts: 111
    From: Dallas, TX
    Joined: 02-10-2006


    Message 160 of 230 (286385)
    02-14-2006 9:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 155 by purpledawn
    02-13-2006 4:32 PM


    Re: Capable of Dying
    The word escape was mine, not the Bible's. I use the word because I come from the perspective of not knowing anything other than death, so to me...not dying would be an escape. This is semantics.

    The question is was there death before the fall...according to a straight-forward reading of Genesis the answer is no. I don't believe the Tree of Life literally needed to be eaten to attain immortality as you suggest. Rather it was symbolic of the fact that God was the provider of eternal life. It sat in the middle of the Garden, just as God was to be in the middle of A & E's existence. When they were seperated from God, they also were seperated from the Tree. While in the Garden, A & E actually had a personal relationship with God...the tree sybolizes the benefits of that close connection.

    I disagree that death is a natural part of existence. To state this as fact you would have to have been there at the beginning to know it was always there. The Bible asserts that it wasn't. My feeling is that most people have an uncouncious understanding that death is an enemy. Think of the fruitless efforts people undertake to avoid it.

    As to procreation...the purpose was to multiply and fill the earth, as the verse you quote implies. The earth would be a pretty drab place if there were only the original created animals running around...the extra real estate needed to be filled. Not to mention, being omnipotent God knew what the future would bring and needed a system that would work pre-Fall and post-Fall.

    I understand your problems with how the laws of science operated before death. There is a seeming contradiction to how things work now. However, not being a uniformitarian myself, I'm not bound by the belief that the way things work now is the way they've always worked. From a bibilical perspective, God has directly intervened at several points in history to alter the physical order of things. This would be one of those cases.


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    Garrett
    Member (Idle past 4508 days)
    Posts: 111
    From: Dallas, TX
    Joined: 02-10-2006


    Message 161 of 230 (286386)
    02-14-2006 9:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 158 by purpledawn
    02-13-2006 8:55 PM


    Re: Capable of Dying
    You have to understand that in a literal translation there is still symbolism. I guess a better term would be a "normal" translation.

    I think the Tree of Life, although it did physically exist, was mainly symbolic of the fact that while they remained with God, they would be immortal. Notice that when they were seperated from God, the Tree of Life was taken away and guarding by flaming swords. Seems pretty simple.


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    Garrett
    Member (Idle past 4508 days)
    Posts: 111
    From: Dallas, TX
    Joined: 02-10-2006


    Message 162 of 230 (286389)
    02-14-2006 9:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 158 by purpledawn
    02-13-2006 8:55 PM


    Re: Capable of Dying
    Please see Message 146 for some of the biblical evidence that there was no death before the fall.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2006 8:55 PM purpledawn has responded

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    Garrett
    Member (Idle past 4508 days)
    Posts: 111
    From: Dallas, TX
    Joined: 02-10-2006


    Message 163 of 230 (286395)
    02-14-2006 9:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 159 by ReverendDG
    02-14-2006 1:01 AM


    Re: Did God Lie?
    I have a hard time believing that you can't see more than one interpretation of what that phrase literally means.

    If there is one interpretation that doesn't falsify the statement, then the statement isn't false...plain and simple.


    This message is a reply to:
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    iano
    Member (Idle past 283 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 164 of 230 (286408)
    02-14-2006 10:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 158 by purpledawn
    02-13-2006 8:55 PM


    Re: Capable of Dying
    If animals couldn’t die, why did God create them with reproductive abilities?

    You'd have to ask Him, but suffice to say there can be other reasons than simply to replace those that die. He might like animals - who knows. And lets not worry about overpopulating the earth - God knew what would happen in advance. We cannot assume the solution based on lack of insight into why he did what he did.

    It is clear from the text that the fruit from the Tree of Life could give the eater immortality.

    It could give immortality to one capable of dying it would seem. But what it would do for someone not capable of dying is a different issue. We can't suppose no death before the fall based on the cake baked by ingredients after the fall.

    If Adam and Eve already possessed immortality, why did they need nourishment?

    Was Jesus in an immortal state when he ate with the disciples after his resurrection. Why he ate I don't know but dying from lack of food couldn't be one of them.


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    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 283 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 165 of 230 (286434)
    02-14-2006 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 150 by Garrett
    02-13-2006 2:52 PM


    Re: Evidence that there was no death before the Fall
    Garrett,

    I think God was basically cementing this concept into our minds by refusing Abel's offering

    I think you meant Cain's offering.

    Your posts are very good. I have been limited in participation lately. Glad to see you contribute. I have more reading of posts to do to catch up with the discussion.

    This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-14-2006 11:21 AM


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