Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-17-2019 8:55 AM
25 online now:
4petdinos, JonF, kjsimons, Stile, Tangle (5 members, 20 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 853,893 Year: 8,929/19,786 Month: 1,351/2,119 Week: 111/576 Day: 12/99 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1112
13
141516Next
Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 36 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 181 of 230 (286765)
02-15-2006 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by iano
02-14-2006 10:04 AM


Re: Capable of Dying
iano writes:

quote:
God knew what would happen in advance.

Congratulations. You've just done away with free will.

Which means Adam didn't sin. He was doomed to disobey god.

Which means god knew it from the moment Adam was created.

Which means god knew that Adam was going to die.

Which means death was present from the very beginning.

quote:
It could give immortality to one capable of dying it would seem. But what it would do for someone not capable of dying is a different issue.

No, you miss the point:

If Adam and Eve weren't going to die, why is there a tree of life that grants immortality at all? It is unnecessary. There is no such thing as death, so why is there a tree that prevents something that doesn't exist?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 02-14-2006 10:04 AM iano has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 104 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 182 of 230 (286768)
02-15-2006 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Rrhain
02-15-2006 4:10 AM


Re: Do and die
rrhian earlier writes:

If I tell you that you will die before sunset today and you don't die, was I telling you the truth?

Your interpreting "on the day...surely will" here in a way that implies God was lying (or issuing empty threats or simply wrong) - as Adam didn't die that day. If this is possible then....

rrahain writes:

After all, god panics as soon as he hears that Adam and Eve have eaten from the tree of knowledge and kicks them out lest they eat from the tree of life and become immortal.

...on what basis do you think God wasn't lying here, getting it wrong etc? It seems as soon as you include possibilities of God lying,being wrong, etc., then discussion becomes impossible

In order to discuss we must assume that God doesn't lie or get things wrong or issue empty threats. If that is agreed then "on the day" + Adam living as long as he did = the abililty to die entered.

Meaning immortality before.

And since carnivores don't survive on vegetarian diets, this must mean that there was death before the fall or a great many animals would have starved to death.

And if such dramatic changes could take place such as an immortal being changing to become mortal then a lot of other things are relative childs play to accept as being able to occur

Then what was the point of the tree of life?

The function of the tree of life is open to debate. We know that it could give eternal life to a mortal person (assuming God was telling the truth here) but what other functions it might fulfill are open to question. Whether we know what they are or not does not indicate that the function described was the only one possible


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2006 4:10 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3983 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 183 of 230 (286772)
02-15-2006 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by ReverendDG
02-14-2006 3:21 PM


Re: Did God Lie?
i know there are more than one interpreatation but why would you try to change the meaning?

That's certainly pot calling kettle black. There is absolutely no reason to believe yours is the first and automatic interpretation of what was written, and someone else's interpretation is to inherently change its meaning.

He may very well have meant what he said, but then could not bring himself to do it after all, or thought it wasn't sufficient later on. Heck, everything might have changed (for him) seeing that they did not choose to eat of it all on their own, but were duped into doing so by the serpent.

Why would that be any less valid an interpretation from the start? The idea that he lied is as much as an impression of external items on the text as any other background assumption.


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ReverendDG, posted 02-14-2006 3:21 PM ReverendDG has not yet responded

    
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3983 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 184 of 230 (286780)
02-15-2006 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Rrhain
02-15-2006 4:00 AM


Re: Parent's Perrogative
That would impute an entirely different motivation on god that is not justified in the text.

Based on what? Your interpretation of what God is and says? There is no singular correct interpretation and asserting yours is the correct one is bizarre.

You have moved well beyond the text to say that he lied. Show where it ever says "And then God lied" or something like that. All we know is that he said something at one time regarding a hypothetical situation, and then did not do exactly what he suggested he might do when confronted with the real event.

It could have been a change of heart due to mercy, or perhaps a greater cruelty. Maybe he felt oblivion wasn't as good as removing them from paradise first.

It might also be mentioned that the condition was different. He told them not to eat it and the text pretty plainly states they were duped into it. The serpent wanted to create a break between them and God, and did so by convincing them to eat it. God may very well have seen this as a reason not to have held them as accountable and so worthy as great a punishment.

What I find interesting is that you make this claim of falsehood against God, when it is not in the text,and suggest the serpent was somehow truthful when the text explicitly describes the snake as less than honest.

Given the bloody-mindedness of the god described in the Old Testament, there is no real justification to say that "god didn't really mean it" in Genesis 3. By all indications, he really did.

Sure there is justification. God shifts from merciful to cruel throughout the old testament. You can't say here he was cruel and so he must always be.

And that is not to mention what I was arguing above and which purpledawn seemed to be suggesting (as he was agreeing with me) that though he might have "meant it" when he said it, when confronted with the situation he changed his mind. And indeed maybe all he "meant" was to put the scare into them so they would not think of doing it. There is no suggestion in the Bible that he could not have been capable of such activity.


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2006 4:00 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 185 of 230 (286794)
02-15-2006 7:25 AM


More than one man and woman is involved

RrHain,

If Adam had expired completely before sunset then there would be no human race for God to save. That would mean that the enemy of God thwarted God's plan.

It was more than a personal matter concerning one man and one woman. It was a matter of God putting into place a plan of salvation for man as a whole. Where is man if Adam and Eve had no children but died before sunset?

Do you think that suddenly an all knowing God decided to altar events and allow Adam to live out 900 years? I don't think that this was God's sudden remedial solution. I think from the beginning He knew what He would have to do. So if that is the case why would he promise Adam that he would only have until sunset before he collapsed?

"Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil ..."

What toil? If Adam only has until sunset before his last breath, what is this talk about toil or the need for it? Do you think God suddenly decided to let Adam toil for awhile? I don't.

"Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life."

Do you think that God suddenly decided on the fly to add days to Adam's doomed life? I don't. I think God had an eternal purpose to rescue and fulfill. I think God knew and thought out the possibilities before the universe was created. I don't think He suddenly decided that He would BREAK His word and let Adam live out more days than just one.

"And thorns and thistles it will bring forth for you, And you will ear the herb of the field; By the sweat of your face you will eat bread UNTIL ... you return to the ground,

Because from it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."

I don't think any of these pronouncements were an altaration or re-thinking of a promise to kill Adam by sunset.

In the next verse, verse 20, Adam names his wife "The mother of all living". God has more than a plan with just two individuals whom He must make certain die before sunset. It is shortsighted to miss that people have to be born in order for God to enact a salvation to mankind as a whole.

It is really to trivialize the Creator of the world and man to suggest that His only desire was to make sure that Adam and Eve croaked before sundown. How shortsighted this is.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 07:27 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 07:28 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 07:33 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 07:35 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 12:19 PM jaywill has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1621 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 186 of 230 (286798)
02-15-2006 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Rrhain
02-15-2006 4:00 AM


Re: Parent's Perrogative
quote:
Given the bloody-mindedness of the god described in the Old Testament, there is no real justification to say that "god didn't really mean it" in Genesis 3.
Sure there is, he didn't follow through. If he followed through he would have meant it, but since he didn't, he obviously didn't mean it.

His later decisions are just that, later decisions.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2006 4:00 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM purpledawn has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 187 of 230 (286800)
02-15-2006 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by purpledawn
02-15-2006 7:30 AM


Re: Parent's Perrogative
Sure there is, he didn't follow through. If he followed through he would have meant it, but since he didn't, he obviously didn't mean it.
His later decisions are just that, later decisions.

I think I will dub this the "Oops Theory."

That is a theory that God was shocked and surprised that Adam actually did eat of the forbidden fruit. By Golly He never thought that he would do it. Ooops. God has to now break his promise to kill off Adam before the sun goes down.

God says "Ooops. I shouldn't have said that Adam is going to die today. Hmmm. Now how do I get out of this one?"

C'mon guys. Can you conceive a Being Whose knowledge and wisdom is infinite? Look at the universe. Where is its end? How big is it? Look at the atoms and the particles inside of it. Is there an end in sight? Have we found the largest structure in the universe? Have we yet discovered the smallest particle, the Omega Minus of quantom science?

I think the Creator [was] wise enough to know exactly what to do well in advance concerning when Adam should breath his last.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 07:48 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 07:50 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2006 7:30 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by nwr, posted 02-15-2006 12:11 PM jaywill has responded
 Message 189 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 12:15 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 198 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2006 6:47 PM jaywill has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 188 of 230 (286900)
02-15-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:46 AM


Re: Parent's Perrogative
God says "Ooops. I shouldn't have said that Adam is going to die today. Hmmm. Now how do I get out of this one?"

C'mon guys. Can you conceive a Being Whose knowledge and wisdom is infinite?


What about the flood story, where God apparently says "Oops! I shouldn't have done that. I will invent the rainbow as a sign that I will never do it again."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 12:59 PM nwr has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6617
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 189 of 230 (286903)
02-15-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:46 AM


conception vs actuality
quote:
Can you conceive a Being Whose knowledge and wisdom is infinite?

It's not that we can't conceive of it; it's that the god described in the Old Testament doesn't seem to exhibit those qualities.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6617
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 190 of 230 (286906)
02-15-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:25 AM


Wait a minute!
quote:
If Adam had expired completely before sunset then there would be no human race for God to save. That would mean that the enemy of God thwarted God's plan.

Unless God's plan was for billions of people to burn in Hell for all eternity, the enemy has succeeded in thwarting God's plan.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:25 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:08 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 191 of 230 (286917)
02-15-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by nwr
02-15-2006 12:11 PM


Re: Parent's Perrogative
What about the flood story, where God apparently says "Oops! I shouldn't have done that. I will invent the rainbow as a sign that I will never do it again."

Alright. I anticipated some objection like this. You have a point.

My response is that what we hear of God saying concerning His repentence is mainly for OUR knowlege. It is so that we can see God's heart concerning man's sin and God's salvation.

The book of Revelation says that the Lamb of God, the Redeeming Savior, was slain "from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) This must mean that from the foundation of the world God knew that Christ would be the slain and resurrected Redeemer Savior.

"And all those dwelling on the earth will worship him [the Antichrist] every one whose name is not written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world"

How could there be a panicky afterthought on God's part if He knew from the very foundation of the world that the Lamb of God, Christ, would have to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins?

So God's utternance about the rainbow, and the repentence, and the associated promises not to bring another flood, are recorded words that WE may see the heart of God. I don't think that they represent a sudden remedial shift on the Divine part totally ignorant of the possibilities from the foundation of the world.

No OOOPs. Just a little window into the eternal heart of God concerning our redemption and salvation.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 12:59 PM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 01:01 PM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 01:02 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by nwr, posted 02-15-2006 12:11 PM nwr has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 192 of 230 (286922)
02-15-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Chiroptera
02-15-2006 12:19 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
Unless God's plan was for billions of people to burn in Hell for all eternity, the enemy has succeeded in thwarting God's plan.

I read that the eternal fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels:

"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)

I think that the idea is that you go where your leader goes. If Christ is your leader you share His glorious destiny. If you refuse Christ as your Leader you go down with your leader the Devil.

But we shouldn't think about it too much. At least Calvin suggested that we should not think about it too much. We should think instead about the salvation extended to man in Christ.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 12:19 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 1:19 PM jaywill has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6617
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 193 of 230 (286927)
02-15-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jaywill
02-15-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
My comment was a response on your comment on whether or not "the enemy" has succeeded in thwarting God's plan.

You stated that God wasn't going to allow for his plan to be "thwarted".

Did God have a plan prior to creation? Are things going according to that plan? If not, then his plans have been thwarted. You seem to be saying that the eternal torment of humanity was a part of God's plan from the beginning.

-

quote:
But we shouldn't think about it too much.

I do believe that this is the standard defense of mass murderers and despots when they are tried for crimes against humanity.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:08 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:47 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 194 of 230 (286947)
02-15-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Chiroptera
02-15-2006 1:19 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
Did God have a plan prior to creation? Are things going according to that plan? If not, then his plans have been thwarted. You seem to be saying that the eternal torment of humanity was a part of God's plan from the beginning.

I believe that God had an eternal purpose before creation.

I believe that God cannot be stopped from fulfilling His purpose. He can be caused some trouble. He can be delayed. But He cannot be stopped.

Was the damnation and torment of humanity a part of God's plan? I don't know. I would like to think that it was not. But I am prepared to discard that if one day I realize that there is no other way than to believe that it was.


But we shouldn't think about it too much.

I do believe that this is the standard defense of mass murderers and despots when they are tried for crimes against humanity.

Okay.

Then you should not be bothered if I ask you this:

Let us place Jesus Christ of the Bible on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being the most immoral and 10 being the most moral. Where would you put yourself in relation to Jesus?

Do you view yourself on par with Christ? Would you place yourself somewhat beneath Him on the scale? Or would you place yourself above Him?

On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most right, the most good, the most just ... where would you put yourself and where would you put Jesus Christ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 1:19 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Garrett, posted 02-15-2006 4:05 PM jaywill has not yet responded
 Message 197 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 6:13 PM jaywill has responded

  
Garrett
Member (Idle past 4329 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 195 of 230 (287032)
02-15-2006 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by jaywill
02-14-2006 11:20 AM


Re: Evidence that there was no death before the Fall
Duh...of course I meant Cain.

I look forward to future discussions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by jaywill, posted 02-14-2006 11:20 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 8:08 PM Garrett has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1112
13
141516Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019