Why NOT Christ Lineage through Joesph's boodline, Instead of Judah's

Ramoss, Thanks.Can you tell me concerning Point # 3 as it concerns those Orthodox Jews who are looking for the Messiah to come?Do these Orthodox Jews feel that the interruption of Jeconiah's curse is a break in the line of Solomon leading to some future Messiah?This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 02:14 PM

Ramoss,It seems that you already answered this question: With these words: Sorry.

Ramoss,You have told me: Do these Orthodox Jews believe that Jeconiah himself was a continuation of this line from Solomon?Or do they believe that God never intended that Jeconiah would be a continuation of this line of kings from Solomon regardless?Does the line exist BETWEEN Solomon and Jeconiah or not, is what I would like to know from these Orthodox Jews.

He was, but because of the fact he was such a BAD king, his offspring was removed from the line of David forever.That was the point of the passages I quoted earlier.

Ramoss, Was that removal of Jeconiah and his descendents a break in the line of male sons of kings?Are you saying that the Orthodox view is that God will pick up again the line from Jeconiah further down time?Or are you saying that because Jeconiah was SO BAD, that God removed his descendents from the line of David and changed His mind to continue down the Davidic line with ANOTHER son of Solomon?This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 04:31 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 04:31 PM

Mistaken Post.Erased.Rather questions to Ramoss: This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 06:18 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 06:18 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-10-2006 06:19 PM

is your question regarding where the line picks up? ie: jeconiah's brother (if he had one), uncle, etc? and whether it goes all the way back to solomon, or if it's just ANY son of solomon?i'm kind of curious, myself.

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arach hit it early I see...."son of David"This message has been edited by randman, 01-11-2006 03:31 AM

I think that you should ask Ramoss how he perceives the questions.At least for the moment. And the question is specifically to Ramoss.Clearly, behavior has something to do with the FITNESS to be included in the lineage to the Messiah. Ramoss has represented the Orthodox view to me that Jeconiah was SO BAD that he and his sons were discarded from the possibility of being in the messianic line from David to the Messiah.The law, according to Ramoss, is an unbroken like of father to son. Then God has a problem from the point of Jeconiah. Jeconiah himself is in the line, (again according to Ramoss). But his sons are discarded.So to keep the law God must find another unbroken line of extending from Solomon or He must pick up the line further on from Jeconiah's descendents and nullify the interruption.If the latter choice is out then the former seems the only way. In the former case God has to change His mind about Jeconiah. He must decide that He will reverse His decision and go down another unbroken line from another descendent of Solomon.I am asking Ramoss how does Orthodox Judiasm deal with this situation. What do they attribute God as doing since He cannot continue the unbroken line of kings from the point of Jeconiah.Ramoss, may need time to research this. And I want to give Ramoss all the time needed to find an answer from the Orthodox view.

Arachnophelia, That is my question to Ramoss Arachnophelia.Now, you say you are curious also. I don't know yet what Ramoss will say.But I want to say to you that in Matthew's geneology Jeconiah is definitely not even counted as a king. I pointed out before that the 42 generations are composed in three groups of 14 generations each (caveats not mentioned at the moment).There are the fathers, the kings, and the civilians. Jeconiah is NOT mentioned in the section of the kings. He is mentioned in the section of the civilians.The footnotes of Matthew 1:11(2,3) in the Recovery Version New Testament reads: The Holy Bible Recovery VersionThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 07:04 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 07:05 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 07:07 AM

It was the actions of Jeconiah that cause his continuation to be restricted from the kingly line.

The orthodox Jews feel that the line is permantly cursed.

That is the CHristian explaination to reconcile the lineage. However, that is not the Jewish belief.

Ramoss, You mean that though God continued down the line of Solomon the actions of one of the kings on that line caused God to take special measures to change the line of continuation.This must mean that the commitment of God to continue down the line from Solomon is not altogether without certain moral conditions. If a king becomes unworthy of having his descendents continue the line God will intervene. He will not automatically continue if He does not deem it worthy to do so.The case of Jeconiah proves this, from the Orthodox Jewish perspective. This means that though God went down the line from Solomon reaching to Jeconiah, He nevertheless is not bound to continue with Jeconiah’s line. The line from Jeconiah is permanently cursed. To keep His promise God therefore must in a sense “rethink” or “reverse” His traversing down that line to seek another line which from Solomon.According to what you tell me of the Orthodox view, this must be the case. No doubt this is true.But how much different in nature is it? We believe that the promise is to David and God re-routed because of the failure of Solomon.The Orthodox view is that God’s promise was to Solomon and God re-routed because of the failure of Jeconiah.In nature the reasoning is exactly the same. The point of re-routing is different. And perhaps the promise of the starting point of the line seems to be different. The view of some Christians is that the starting point is David. You seem to be arguing that the starting point is Solomon. Or at least you seem to be saying that line must be from David through Solomon.Here are some of the verses which lead me to believe that the failure of Solomon caused God to re-route.Solomon had a splendid and marvelous kingdom. I was enthralled again last night as I read chapters 9 and 10 if First Kings about the glory of his reign. But then the Bible candidly tells us what went wrong. (And I think everyone should read how splendid Solomon’s reign was in chapters 9 and 10 before coming to his failures in chapter 11).”But”When we come to the word ”But” we are signaled that in spite of his success, there is a negative to consider.”But King Solomon loved many foreign women . And when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect toward Jehovah his God like the heart of David his father.

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And Solomon went after Ashotoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable thing of the Ammonites. And Solomon did what was evil in the sight of Jehovah and did not fully follow Jehovah as David his father had done.

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Then Solomon built a high place to Chemosh the detestable thing of Moab . and Molech the destestable thing of the children of Ammon . And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods .

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So Jehovah became angry with Solomon because his heart turned away from Jehovah the God of Israel . And Jehovah said to Solomon, Because you have done this and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant.

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(See 1 Kings 11:1-13)The line in bound up with the covenant. This would be true of Solomon as well as with Jeconiah.David had his faults and his failures. But David had one thing, he never went after foreign gods and forsook Jehovah the God of Israel.But this is not all. We should go back to see God’s words to Solomon after Solomon’s dedication prayer of the house of God.”Jehovah appeared to Solomon a second time, as He had appeared to him at Gibeon.

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And Jehovah said to him, I have heard your prayer and your supplication which you have made before Me; I have sanctified this house which you have built by putting My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there continually.

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And as for you, IF ... [my emphasis]Please take note of the conditional nature of God’s words to Solomon.Continuing:And as for you, IF you walk before Me, as David your father walked, with a perfect and upright heart by observing all that I have commanded you and keep My statutes and My ordinances,

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THEN... [my emphasis]... I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, as I promised to David your father, saying, You will not lack a man on the throne of Israel.

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BUT [my emphasis] IF YOU OR YOUR SONS ... [my emphasis]... indeed turn away from following Me and do NOT ... [my emphasis] ... keep My commandments and My statutes, which I have put before you, and go and serve OTHER GODS ... [my emphasis] ... and worship them,

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Then I will CUT ISRAEL OFF ...[my emphasis]... from the face of the land which I have given them, and the house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight, and Israel will be a proverb and a byword among all the peoples” (1 Kings 9:2-7)Please notice that the promise of God is to put His name in the house that Solomon built ”forever” (verse 3). But the BUT-IF-THEN condition says ”and this house which I have sanctified for My name I will cast out of My sight . ” (verse 7)We Christians believe therefore that it was probably at Solomon’s failure that God re-routed His promise from the line of Solomon to Nathan, the other son of David.Now perhaps there was some repentence room left to Solomon and sons for a season. But with the failure of Jeconiah the line from Solomon is definitely cut off. I don’t know that much. And God Who is transcendent over time and has His marvelous providence and sovereignty knows more than any of us. I don’t pretend to know at what precise point an eternal God Who knows all made a decision to do something.But basically what the Orthodox view of what happened with Jeconiah, I believe happened with Solomon. But how is it fair for you to criticize our reasoning when the Orthodox reasoning is so similar?And the passages which I quote to you in part, confirm that God followed through in His conditional promise to Solomon.This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 02:09 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 02:10 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 03:43 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 03:51 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 01-11-2006 03:52 PM

warning -- this post spiraled out of control when one minor problem led to several major ones. i think i got most of them sorted out, but without re-reading kings and chronicles and jeremiah, i can't be sure i'm right here. yes, that's a fair question i think. i will address this point in a round-about kind of way, because it's how i came to it, but the basis is pretty simple. there was indeed a rightful king after jehoiakim's curse was fulfilled. and matthew leaves out a few (four, if memory serves), one of whom is jehoiakim the cursed king. please note what matthew says: "And Josias begat Jechonias" (verse 11).how does matthew solve the problem? he leaves out jehoiakim. but i do think it is primarily intended to be a kingly line, at least far more so than luke's -- it's just a bad "fix." well, here's the list:

1. abraham (patriarch)
2. isaac (pat.)
3. jacob (pat.)
4. judah (pat.)
5. perez
6. hezron
7. aram
8. aminadab
9. nahshon
10. salmon
11. boaz
12. obed
13. jesse
14. david (king)
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15. solomon (king)
16. rehoboam (king)
17. abijah (king)
18. asa (king)
19. jehoshaphat (king)
20. joram (king)
21. uziah (king)
22. jotham (king)
23. ahaz (king)
24. hezekiah (king)
25. manasseh (king)
26. amon (king)
27. josiah (king)
28. jeconiah (king?)
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29. shealtiel
30. zerubabel
31. adihud
32. eliakim
33. azor
34. zadok
35. achim
36. eliud
37. eleazar
38. matthan
39. jacob
40. joseph
41. jesus

i count 41 generations. did i miss one? this page also has 41, not the 42 you claim. this makes them impossible to divide in groups of 14. as you can see, there are 15 kings -- so i take it you choose to make the first 13 instead of the last, pushing jeconiah off the list?perhaps we can trace the problem back to the original curse:

quote:

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Jer 36:29-30

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And thou shalt say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, Thus saith the LORD; Thou hast burned this roll, saying, Why hast thou written therein, saying, The king of Babylon shall certainly come and destroy this land, and shall cause to cease from thence man and beast? Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.

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quote:

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Jer 29:2 (After that Jeconiah the king, and the queen, and the eunuchs, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the carpenters, and the smiths, were departed from Jerusalem

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you may notice that verse number precedes the curse. i'm not sure if that means anything. jeremiah might be out of order. there's a bit about zedekiah between the two verses.

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Est 2:6 Who had been carried away from Jerusalem with the captivity which had been carried away with Jeconiah king of Judah, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away.

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however, jehoiakim's son did reign as king. "jeconiah" is jeremiah and esther's name for jehoiachin. what's even more important to note is that he was a legitimate king.

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2Ch 36:8 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, and his abominations which he did, and that which was found in him, behold, they [are] written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead.

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jehoiachin/jeconiah was the second last king of judah to reign in jerusalem. nebuchadnezzar removed him from the throne after only 3 months. he was only 18 (8?) years old at the time:

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2Ki 24:8 Jehoiachin [was] eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name [was] Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

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but there's another problem: jeremiah goes from jehoiakim to zedekiah, and explicitly skips jeconiah:

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Jer 37:1 And king Zedekiah the son of Josiah reigned instead of Coniah the son of Jehoiakim, whom Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon made king in the land of Judah.

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maybe this is another problem about being out of order. maybe the position fits kings and chronicles. jehoiakim dies (at the hands of his own people to appease nebuchadnezzar), and his son jeconiah takes the thrown, but is taken into exile and deposed by nebuchadnezzar. then jeconiah is overthrown too, and zedekiah replaces him. jeremiah might be leaving out jeconiah because the bit that made zedekiah hier was kind of strange:

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2Ch 36:9 Jehoiachin [was] eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did [that which was] evil in the sight of the LORD.

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2Ch 36:10 And when the year was expired, king Nebuchadnezzar sent, and brought him to Babylon, with the goodly vessels of the house of the LORD, and made Zedekiah his brother king over Judah and Jerusalem.

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but that's not true -- i just quoted that verse. he was born in judah, and reigned on the throne in jerusalem for 3 months and 10 days. he was not born in captivity. his father made judah a tributary of the babylonian empire, but captivity does not begin until the last king of judah (zedekiah) is dethroned. maybe the "brothers" bit refering to 2chr 36:10, which i quoted above. it calls zedekiah his father's brother, which is only a slight problem if you're skipping a generation anyways.

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1Ch 3:15 And the sons of Josiah [were], the firstborn Johanan, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum.

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brothers are mentioned because the line of kings backtracks twice to maintain it's unbroken nature. when josiah dies, jehoahaz takes the throne. but he's taken off to egypt, so jehoiakim his brother takes the throne. when he dies, jeconiah his son takes the trone -- but when he's carried off, the next son of josiah takes his place. so maybe there's your answer -- maybe the line of kings has to read:

• josiah
• zedekiah
  ...
• jesus

and not

• josiah
• (jehoiakim)
• jeconiah
  ...
• jesus

curiously, matthew leaves out jehoahaz too -- why leave out the brother, but not go through the father's brother like the line of kings actually went through? the presence of jeconiah is incredibly conspicuous. so he was a king, just not the RIGHT king. the problem is that matthew goes down the wrong fork in the road.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 01-12-2006 09:54 PM

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