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Author Topic:   Was Christ a communist?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 128 (618645)
06-04-2011 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Modulous
06-04-2011 1:16 PM


Re: Redistribution Of Wealth
Then you believe God exists, ...

Yes, I believe GOD exists; I do not know that GOD exists.

... you don't believe in God (ie., you don't have faith in god, only his existence).

What does it even mean to believe in GOD? I think it is irrational to starve myself to death while waiting for some undetectable entity to bring me some food. Despite how irrational my beliefs about GOD already are, I don't need to make them more so!

But if you believe God exists in reality, and you trust that he will look after you in reality...

I believe GOD exists, just like I believe the farmers who grow my food exist. I do not 'trust that he will look after' me, though; I don't count on others, even if I depend on them.

That GOD or the farmers have what it takes to provide for me or that my trust may be put fully into them for that provision is no reason to stop going to work each day to earn money to live. I don't expect the farmers to hand me their crops; I don't expect GOD to hand me HERS.

It is evidence of your lack of faith.

It depends on what you mean by 'faith'. Hoping for someone else to look after you just because they can is, in my book, a pretty piss-poor way to understand faith. It's common in many fundamentalist circles; but ultimately it's crap.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Modulous, posted 06-04-2011 1:16 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Modulous, posted 06-04-2011 7:11 PM Jon has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 122 of 128 (618662)
06-04-2011 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Jon
06-04-2011 2:56 PM


Re: Redistribution Of Wealth
What does it even mean to believe in GOD? I think it is irrational to starve myself to death while waiting for some undetectable entity to bring me some food.

I was suggesting that you shouldn't worry about eating tomorrow, only about eating today, if you trust that God will provide for you as per Matthew 6.

I believe GOD exists, just like I believe the farmers who grow my food exist. I do not 'trust that he will look after' me, though

Indeed, that kind of faith is rare, which is what I said. It's not a personal slight against you that you don't make gigantic unwarranted leaps of faith.

That GOD or the farmers have what it takes to provide for me or that my trust may be put fully into them for that provision is no reason to stop going to work each day to earn money to live.

Of course not. But if you trust God will provide for you, if you have faith that he will, then you need not worry about saving money.

It depends on what you mean by 'faith'. Hoping for someone else to look after you just because they can is, in my book, a pretty piss-poor way to understand faith.

Indeed. But I was suggesting faith to mean 'trusting God will do what he says' not 'hope that God will exercise his capabilities'. Matthew 6 asks for a huge amount of faith, a foolish amount of faith in my opinion. I was just drawing the distinction between actually trusting someone (having faith) and merely believing they exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Jon, posted 06-04-2011 2:56 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Jon, posted 06-04-2011 9:31 PM Modulous has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 128 (618672)
06-04-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Modulous
06-04-2011 7:11 PM


Re: Redistribution Of Wealth
But I was suggesting faith to mean 'trusting God will do what he says'

I cannot think of GOD having made any promises, certainly nothing I could expect holding IT to.

I was just drawing the distinction between actually trusting someone (having faith) and merely believing they exist.

There's a lot of ground in between.

Jon

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Modulous, posted 06-04-2011 7:11 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Modulous, posted 06-05-2011 4:14 AM Jon has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 124 of 128 (618690)
06-05-2011 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Jon
06-04-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Redistribution Of Wealth
I cannot think of GOD having made any promises, certainly nothing I could expect holding IT to.

You should read the Bible, he starts with the promises pretty early on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Jon, posted 06-04-2011 9:31 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Jon, posted 06-05-2011 10:43 AM Modulous has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 128 (618698)
06-05-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Modulous
06-05-2011 4:14 AM


Re: Redistribution Of Wealth
You should read the Bible, he starts with the promises pretty early on.

I don't believe in the God of the 'Bible'.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Modulous, posted 06-05-2011 4:14 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Modulous, posted 06-05-2011 11:32 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 392 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 126 of 128 (618700)
06-05-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Jon
06-05-2011 10:43 AM


Re: Redistribution Of Wealth
I don't believe in the God of the 'Bible'.

That's nice Jon, but in a thread about Christ in which I responded to a Christian who lamented falling short of Christ's standards by pointing out that few people meet the standards of faith set out in the Gospel of Matthew, maybe I was talking about the God of the Bible when I said

quote:
I wouldn't worry about it too much though, many people profess to have a deep faith in God who actually don't trust him at all.

which caused you to reply

quote:
Well, I believe in GOD

Now we have established that what I was talking about was irrelevant to you, shall I then disregard the entire discussion that followed?


Christ could be said to be a commune-ist, who appealed to the ultimate central authority. He was apparently against saving, pensions etc etc in some capacity, not against a decentralised economy - but probably against mega-corps. I would suggest he was proposed a needs based attitude to money, similar to the communist idea of 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need', but that's probably where any similarities end.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Jon, posted 06-05-2011 10:43 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 229 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 127 of 128 (619202)
06-09-2011 4:56 AM


William Craig critiques the familiar pattern of skeptical "Historical Jesus" books:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQXDKL742E&feature=related


Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by bluegenes, posted 06-09-2011 6:21 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 765 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 128 of 128 (619209)
06-09-2011 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jaywill
06-09-2011 4:56 AM


Is Dr. Craig a communalist or a hypocrite?
As a conservative American I. D./Creationist type, how do you think Dr. Craig manages to lie to himself about the implications of verses like these?

From the O.P., again:

quote:

Acts 2: 42, 44, and 45:

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and in fellowship ... 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Matthew 19:16-24
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why do you ask me about what is good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jaywill, posted 06-09-2011 4:56 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
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