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Author
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Topic: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 55 of 300 (309651)
05-06-2006 12:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 54 by jaywill
05-06-2006 10:02 AM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
In what parable did Christ ever mention the specific name of a person? quote:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
quote:
Luk 11:30 For as Jonah was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
A parable is simply a story that "parallels" a lesson to be taught. The events in the story can be real or fanciful - it's still a parable. When a parable is told, the lesson is important, not the accuracy of the "events".
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 10:02 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 12:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 57 of 300 (309667)
05-06-2006 12:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by jaywill
05-06-2006 12:32 PM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes: This means that in the mind of Jesus both Matthew 12:40,41 and Luke 11:30 should be taken as remarks about history. As I said, the characters and events may or may not be historical. That is beside the point. Most of Jesus' parables draw lessons from purely fictional stories - a few happen to mention historical characters and/or events. The point of the Lazarus/rich man parable is that our judgement is not based on earthly position or wealth, that we can be condemned for misuse of our resources, etc. The point is in the guilty/innocent verdict, not in the sentence.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 12:32 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 1:08 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 59 of 300 (309677)
05-06-2006 1:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 58 by jaywill
05-06-2006 1:08 PM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes: It could be easily demonstrated that given the fuller consideration of accompanying sayings of Jesus, it most certainly is a warning about punishment experienced personally after one has died. Then demonstrate it.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 1:08 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 60 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 2:07 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 61 of 300 (309712)
05-06-2006 2:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 60 by jaywill
05-06-2006 2:07 PM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes: ... Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" (Matt. 10:28) Destroy both soul and body - not eternal torment.
... fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna....(Luke 12:4,5) Again, Gehenna refers to destruction, not torment.
... those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28,29) No mention of torment, eternal or otherwise.
... He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:10,11) No mention of torment, eternal or otherwise. The topic is "The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment". It is not about whether or not God can "get you" after death. That is not in dispute. The OP states that "Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist." If you disagree with that statement, I would like you to demonstrate that the unrighteous do not just "cease to exist" - i.e. that they suffer "eternal torment". (Sorry if I wasn't clear about what I was asking.  )
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 2:07 PM | | jaywill has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 69 of 300 (309783)
05-06-2006 6:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by iano
05-06-2006 5:55 PM
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Re: From here to Eternity
iano writes: Why would eternity (when we get there) not be perpetually present to us too? Off topic, but: wouldn't that be another increase in consciousness? An improvement, like the knowledge of good and evil? I don't know if that concept of "timeless eternity" can be supported Biblically, and I don't think it would mean anything to us "mere mortals" anyway. "Eternal torment" in a timeless environment sounds very much like no punishment at all. "I sentence you to zero years in prison. You'll never get out ( because you'll never really be in)".
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by iano, posted 05-06-2006 5:55 PM | | iano has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 72 of 300 (309795)
05-06-2006 6:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by jaywill
05-06-2006 4:46 PM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
The parellel verse in Luke 12:,4,5 says "after killing" God is able to inflict further punishment. That "further punishment" would be the destruction symbolized by Gehenna. The body is destroyed by fire - i.e. does not receive eternal life.
The sinner may be killed in a Gehenna trash heap smoldering outside the city. I don't think the idea is that the sinner is killed by being thrown into Gehenna. The idea is that after death - from whatever cause, natural or not - the body is "thrown out with the garbage" instead of receiving a "decent burial". The one cast into Gehenna is destroyed, leaving no monument. He is forgotten (hence "perdition"). That is the "further punishment". At the risk of going off-topic, think of Ebenezer Scrooge. When he died (in his vision), nobody cared about him. Nobody wanted to go to his funeral (unless lunch was provided). Nobody had a good word for him or a good memory of him, because he had never done any "good works". He was numbered with the goats, not the sheep. The destruction of Gehenna is the perdition of Ebenezer Scrooge.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 4:46 PM | | jaywill has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 74 of 300 (309799)
05-06-2006 6:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
05-06-2006 6:15 PM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
Thirded. I've always been impressed by jaywill's knowledge of what the Bible says - though his understanding of what it means leaves something to be desired.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 6:15 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 86 of 300 (309833)
05-06-2006 8:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 75 by jaywill
05-06-2006 7:24 PM
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Re: Hades, burning, torment
jaywill writes: You may have your corpse thrown into Gehenna city dump. But men have the authority to do that. It doesn't require divine authority. Um... that's why I used the phrase "symbolized by Gehenna". When God judges somebody among the goats, He symbolically throws that person out with the garbage. That was what Jesus meant by the reference to the literal garbage dump, Gehenna. God throwing somebody out with the garbage constitutes their destruction, not their "eternal torment".
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 75 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 7:24 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 91 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 10:48 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 93 of 300 (309875)
05-06-2006 11:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by jaywill
05-06-2006 10:48 PM
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Re: Still burning after 1,000 years!
jaywill writes: Let Ringo explain why 1,000 years did not annhilate the Antichrist and the false prophet. The Revelation is a vision. It is stuffed to the rafters with symbolism that should not be taken too literally. It would take a very long thread to "explain" what it all means. Suffice it to say that the Revelation's dream sequences are not intended to undo the rest of the Bible.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 10:48 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 11:35 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 95 of 300 (309878)
05-06-2006 11:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by jaywill
05-06-2006 11:35 PM
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Re: Still burning after 1,000 years!
jaywill writes: Revelation is the climax and grand finale of the whole Bible. Not really. Don't be confused by the coincidence that it is placed at the end. It's not a case of "the answers are in the back of the book".
I object to any dismissal of the book of Revelation as not important to the teaching of the Bible. I'm not dismissing the Revelation. I'm just saying that its symbolic language doesn't trump the plain language elsewhere.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 11:35 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 11:53 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 97 of 300 (309884)
05-07-2006 12:03 AM
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Reply to: Message 96 by jaywill
05-06-2006 11:53 PM
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Re: Still burning after 1,000 years!
jaywill writes: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll; And if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll" (Rev. 22:18,19) Those words refer to " this scroll" - i.e. the Revelation, not the whole Bible.
These are the strongest words that the book of Revelation is to be taken seriously. It is to be taken seriously and symbolically, not literally.
Without the book of Revelation the Bible has no conclusion on a number of vital matters. Nonsense. As I said, it is coincidence that the Revelation is the last book in the Bible. It is not some kind of super-secret answer key.
If this is your only rebuttal than I think I have done my job. I haven't made a detailed rebuttal because you haven't made any case that needs rebutting. Your own quotes from the rest of the Bible show that the condemned are destroyed, not tortured. There is nothing in the symbolic language of the Revelation that can change that.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by jaywill, posted 05-06-2006 11:53 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 98 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 12:20 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 99 of 300 (309896)
05-07-2006 12:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by jaywill
05-07-2006 12:20 AM
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Re: Still burning after 1,000 years!
... your dismissive attitude towards Revelation is the opposite response. As I have said, I do not dismiss the Revelation. Stop making that false accusation. I have also said that the Revelation's symbolic language can not alter the plain language of the gospels. If all you have is the Revelation, you have no case.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 12:20 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 110 of 300 (309963)
05-07-2006 11:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 107 by jaywill
05-07-2006 9:23 AM
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Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
jaywill writes: Is Purledawn arguing that the eternal fire in Matthew 25 is not eternal? (It's amusing that literalists and dogmatists never seem to understand an analogy. ) You're reading far too much into the "eternal fire" analogy/metaphor. You're dwelling on the "eternal" and neglecting the "fire". "Fire", by it's very nature, consumes what is thrown into it. An "eternal fire" is the burning (destruction) of one object after another, not the perpetual burning of the same object. (Does "throw another log on the fire" ring a bell?) "Eternal" simply means that it will always be there when needed. Fire can be rekindled as necessary - just like the earthly fires of Gehenna. Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel. Similarly, God's punishment of sinners will always be there, as long as there are sinners. But the punishment of individual sinners is final. They are destroyed (consumed) by their punishment.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 9:23 AM | | jaywill has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:40 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 118 of 300 (310040)
05-07-2006 4:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by jaywill
05-07-2006 3:43 PM
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Re: The key is
jaywill writes: ... the results of the punishment are eternal. Conversely then, "eternal life" is not living eternally? Eternal life is living eternally. Eternal punishment is not living eternally. Simple.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 3:43 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 121 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:03 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 119 of 300 (310042)
05-07-2006 4:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 117 by iano
05-07-2006 4:40 PM
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Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
iano writes: Fire in general is eternal, but a fire goes out when it has consumed its fuel. A certain bush springs to mind. The bush was not the fuel. God was. Still lotsa fuel there.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:40 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 120 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:59 PM | | ringo has replied |
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