Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8951 total)
370 online now:
DrJones*, Faith, jar, PaulK, vimesey (5 members, 365 visitors)
Newest Member: Mikee
Post Volume: Total: 866,751 Year: 21,787/19,786 Month: 350/1,834 Week: 350/315 Day: 28/78 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
jaywill
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 211 of 300 (310841)
05-10-2006 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
05-10-2006 2:32 PM


Ringo,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I don't think this matters.

We see in Revelation that the capacity for man to not repent is without measure. Though God is willing and longsuffering, why did these not repent even at the end of the outpouring of God's wrath?

We read - "And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:9)

It is extremely dangerous to put off and put off humbling one's self in repentance to God. These rebellious ones are now LOCKED in the hardness of their hearts.

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain. And blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (Rev. 16:20,22)

Like Satan thier leader, they have been intoxicated with a sense of infinite stubburness. Perhaps they enjoy refusing the Almighty His place more than they suffer the agony of their torments.

So the Bible tells us to seek the Lord while He can be found and call upon Him while He is near. It is dangerous to make sport of hardening your heart to God.

When he seventh bowl of God's wrath is poured out they still do not repent - "And great hail, every stone about the weight of a telent, came down out of heaven upon men, and men blasphemed God for the plague of the hail ..."(Rev. 16:21)

When the Spirit of God is close to your heart prompting you to believe in Christ and receive Him, that is the time to do so. One may lock himself into the hardness from which there is no return.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-10-2006 06:50 PM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-11-2006 04:45 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-11-2006 05:44 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 05-10-2006 2:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 05-10-2006 7:38 PM jaywill has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 212 of 300 (310860)
05-10-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jaywill
05-10-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Hope
jaywill writes:

I don't think this matters.

Very interesting. In Message 209 you saw "no possibility of hope". I gave you two possibilities of hope, just of the top of my head. You ignore one and say the other "doesn't matter".

I think God's opinion does matter. If He doesn't want it to happen, it ain't gonna happen.

When the Spirit of God is close to your heart prompting you to believe in Christ and receive Him, that is the time to do so.

In my second ray of hope, Matthew 25, it is the ones who do well who are saved, not those who "believe" and loudly profess, "Lord! Lord!"

One may lock himself into the hardness from which there is no return.

Indeed. And one may pretend to look for hope, yet close his eyes to it.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2006 6:48 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2006 4:58 AM ringo has responded

AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 300 (310903)
05-10-2006 9:57 PM


Keep It Cool
Hi Jaywill. This is just a mild admonition to advise you that though it's fine to use bolds and caps for emphasis on occasion, as many, including myself sometimes do, I believe you might be overdoing it here. It is regarded by many as shouting at them in a preachy manner, especially when quoting scriptures about this volitile subject.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is when discussing hell fire, cool it so as not to inflame! ;)

When debating these rather volitile subjects, debating gets a bit intense. Imo, there's no big problem here and won't be if we all work hard to keep the peace. :cool:


Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 300 (310911)
05-10-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by purpledawn
05-10-2006 5:28 AM


Re: Whitewash
PD writes:

When we clear out the preconceived ideas, we see that it is the devil, the beast, and the false prophet (all singular) who will be tormented "forever".

But madear, what then do you do with these words of Jesus in Matthew 25:41? :eek:

Matthew 25:41 writes:


Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;.......'


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by purpledawn, posted 05-10-2006 5:28 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2006 5:18 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 217 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2006 9:59 AM Buzsaw has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 215 of 300 (310941)
05-11-2006 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by ringo
05-10-2006 7:38 PM


Re: Hope
In my second ray of hope, Matthew 25, it is the ones who do well who are saved, not those who "believe" and loudly profess, "Lord! Lord!"

Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens. But those who do the will of the Father. This is quite true. But this verse has to do with entering into the reward of the millennial kingdom. It does not refer to eternal redemption and forgiveness.


Indeed. And one may pretend to look for hope, yet close his eyes to it.

I am familiar with that and many many other verses that the Universalist points to to prove that even Satan himself will finally repent.

And perhaps you are right that I shouldn't hold out a prospect of hope when I see none. Point taken.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-11-2006 05:35 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-11-2006 05:58 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by ringo, posted 05-10-2006 7:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 05-11-2006 12:00 PM jaywill has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 216 of 300 (310944)
05-11-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
05-10-2006 10:40 PM


Temporary verses Eternal
Buzsaw,

But madear, what then do you do with these words of Jesus in Matthew 25:41?

Below "forever" and "eternal" are clearly in direct opposition to temporary:

"For perhaps for this reason he was seperated from you for but an hour, that you might fully have him forever ..." (Philemon 15)

Clearly, a limited amount of time is set in contrast to an unlimited amount of time.

"... for the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor. 4:18)

And again here:

"For our momentary lightness of affliction works out for us, more and more surpassingly, an eternal weight of glory" (v.17)

The Apostle's thought is that "the Christian's affliction of time are but light and momentary, whereas the glory that is to compensate is weighty and eternal" - G.H. Lang.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-11-2006 05:22 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-11-2006 05:38 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2006 10:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1793 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 217 of 300 (310989)
05-11-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
05-10-2006 10:40 PM


Down to Brass Tacks
Since you're responding to Message 203 I'm assuming you also read Message 196 which is the beginning of the Whitewash series. If you have, then you are aware of how I study and learn from the Bible. This thread on Matthew will help you understand my view of that author's work. Please keep all that in mind when you read my response.

Matthew is a biography of Jesus and Revelation (90-95ce) is a vision that took place after the death of Jesus. Mark (65-80ce) is considered the first synoptic written. Matthew (80-100ce) and Luke (80-130ce) were written later. Matthew more than likely was before Luke. The author of Luke presents himself as an investigator. So I find it interesting when comparing Mark and Matthew, to see what the author of Luke put in his bio of Jesus.

Mark does not use the word devil (diabolos) at all and Luke only in relation to the tempting of Jesus in which the author of Mark uses (satanas) and the parable of the seeds. Maybe a sign of a changing view.

The "lake of fire" is only in Revelation. Matthew is the only gospel that mentions eternal fire.

The point being that we need to understand what each author is saying within their own work. So asking me about Matthew 25:41 in relation to Rev 20:10 is unreasonable.

Matthew is a bio about Jesus while he walked this earth telling everyone that the Kingdom of God is at hand. Judgment day was imminent. That judgment day didn't happen. Revelation is a vision given to John a considerable time after Jesus' resurrection and IMO, deals with the ultimate judgment day.

So when the author of Matthew writes about what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats and the devil and his angels, IMO, Jesus would be referring to the imminent judgment day. Even if I'm incorrect in that view, the fact is that Revelation is the final vision. It takes place after Jesus had left. Since it is supposedly a vision from Jesus, wouldn't it overrule whatever was written in Matthew?


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 05-10-2006 10:40 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2006 11:17 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 12:10 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 222 by DorfMan, posted 05-11-2006 12:16 PM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2006 9:32 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 300 (311015)
05-11-2006 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by purpledawn
05-11-2006 9:59 AM


Re: Down to Brass Tacks
Your problem is that you're seeing Matthew and John in Revelation as contradictory. You're picking and choosing as to what texts you want to cannonize as accurate and what you want to reject. I don't do that. I see Matthew and John in Revelation as compatible, the one expanding on the other as to the total picture/doctrine. By your strategy of applying the NT as a smorgasboard from which you are allowed to pick and choose to adjust to your personal views essentialy reduces the Bible to what each reader wishes to have it say.

Both texts in Matthew and Revelation are essentially the words of Jesus. Jesus was consistent and never contradicted himself when you consider total context.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2006 9:59 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2006 11:50 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1793 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 219 of 300 (311020)
05-11-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Buzsaw
05-11-2006 11:17 AM


Re: Down to Brass Tacks
quote:
Your problem is that you're seeing Matthew and John in Revelation as contradictory.
No I don't. I see them in a timeline. I see each author with a purpose. God had a purpose for each to deal with the issues of their time.

quote:
By your strategy of applying the NT as a smorgasboard from which you are allowed to pick and choose to adjust to your personal views essentialy reduces the Bible to what each reader wishes to have it say.
Oddly enough I don't think I pick and choose. I'm trying to see what it actually does say in relation to the time it was written and the culture in which it was written.

quote:
Both texts in Matthew and Revelation are essentially the words of Jesus. Jesus was consistent and never contradicted himself when you consider total context.
But the fact is, you don't know that. Jesus didn't write his bio. He himself left no written words. The authors of the gospels wrote from their sources.

Actually if the gospels do contradict themselves, that isn't Jesus contradicting himself. It is really the authors of the gospel who would be contradicting themselves. That's why I find the book of Luke interesting. That author sided with Mark in most cases and not Matthew.

So how does my view of an immediate judgment that God didn't bring about for whatever reason, contradict Revelation or vice versa? How does that scenerio mean that Jesus is contradicting himself? I don't have the impression that Jesus contradicted himself and I'm not sure why you do.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 05-11-2006 11:17 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 220 of 300 (311023)
05-11-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jaywill
05-11-2006 4:58 AM


Re: Hope
jaywill writes:

But this verse has to do with entering into the reward of the millennial kingdom. It does not refer to eternal redemption and forgiveness.

Not true.

quote:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

quote:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

You may have your own interpretation about a "millennial kingdom" but the plain text of the Bible disagrees with you:

quote:
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

It applies to all nations - not just a select few - and it applies to eternal reward/punishment.

perhaps you are right that I shouldn't hold out a prospect of hope when I see none.

That's not what I said. I said you should open your eyes and see what's plainly before them.

(However, the subject of hope is straying off-topic. If you'd like a cure for your hopelessness, I'd be glad to discuss it in the appropriate place.)


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2006 4:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 05-12-2006 6:04 AM ringo has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33828
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 221 of 300 (311027)
05-11-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by purpledawn
05-11-2006 9:59 AM


Re: Down to Brass Tacks
Matthew is a biography of Jesus and Revelation (90-95ce) is a vision that took place after the death of Jesus. Mark (65-80ce) is considered the first synoptic written. Matthew (80-100ce) and Luke (80-130ce) were written later. Matthew more than likely was before Luke. The author of Luke presents himself as an investigator. So I find it interesting when comparing Mark and Matthew, to see what the author of Luke put in his bio of Jesus.

Mark does not use the word devil (diabolos) at all and Luke only in relation to the tempting of Jesus in which the author of Mark uses (satanas) and the parable of the seeds. Maybe a sign of a changing view.

The "lake of fire" is only in Revelation. Matthew is the only gospel that mentions eternal fire.

The point being that we need to understand what each author is saying within their own work. So asking me about Matthew 25:41 in relation to Rev 20:10 is unreasonable.

I agree with Buz. You appear to be treating the writings as in contradiction with one another. If something is mentioned in one or two, but not others, you seem to treat that as meaning that either it was put in the first by mistake, or it was not included in the others by mistake, rather than that it's all true and only the first happened to mention it.

And, referring to your Message 219

Oddly enough I don't think I pick and choose. I'm trying to see what it actually does say in relation to the time it was written and the culture in which it was written.
I don't get how you can speak in terms of different writers representing different times and cultures when you're only talking about a span of a century or so, and about writers who claim to have known each other and would have been telling their experiences all along before they wrote them down. These writings circulated among the various churches, many of them before their authors were dead, and certainly before all those who had known them were dead, so there was plenty of opportunity to compare notes and make corrections if necessary.

Doesn't it count for anything that the believers in the first centuries considered all the writings they regarded as authentic to be of one mind, to build upon each other, so that everything all of them said was included as truth, with no "changing views," but just as different emphases and angles on the same events, and that's why they were all eventually put into one book?

This message has been edited by Faith, 05-11-2006 12:15 PM

This message has been edited by Faith, 05-11-2006 12:18 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2006 9:59 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2006 1:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 4417 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 222 of 300 (311029)
05-11-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by purpledawn
05-11-2006 9:59 AM


Re: Down to Brass Tacks
quote:
The "lake of fire" is only in Revelation. Matthew is the only gospel that mentions eternal fire.

Don't you find it interesting that after it was explained what the term 'forever' can mean and also 'hell', there is a refusal to acknowledge and accept that screaming sinners in hell for eternity are NOT?
God will burn them UP and they will be ASHES under our feet?

2 Timothy 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Another example would be accepting nine commandments as binding, but dismissing one as Jewish.

Well, perhaps I don't find it interesting, too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by purpledawn, posted 05-11-2006 9:59 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1793 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 223 of 300 (311042)
05-11-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Faith
05-11-2006 12:10 PM


Contradiction
quote:
I agree with Buz. You appear to be treating the writings as in contradiction with one another.
So where have I said they contradict each other in relation to this topic?

Just because I don't feel that they automatically support each other, doesn't mean I feel they contradict each other. Now I may not agree with what tradition or dogma states they say, but that means I disagree with tradition and dogma, not with what the author wrote.

Remember, I haven't said there is no lake of fire or final judgment.

quote:
I don't get how you can speak in terms of different writers representing different times and cultures when you're only talking about a span of a century or so, and about writers who claim to have known each other and would have been telling their experiences all along before they wrote them down.
An author has a purpose for writing what he writes.

John wrote down his vision.
I feel that the author of Matthew was writing a satire.
Mark was writing a bio.
Luke also wrote an extended bio, but claims to have investigated circulating information for his work.

A century is a very long time for human change.

Just in my very short lifetime our culture has changed considerably.

I am fascinated by this line of discussion concerning the authors, but I don't want to veer from the original topic. I don't know if there is a current topic on them or not, but if anyone responds to this post, please tie it back to the topic.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 12:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2006 10:16 PM purpledawn has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 224 of 300 (311336)
05-12-2006 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
05-11-2006 12:00 PM


Re: Hope
You may have your own interpretation about a "millennial kingdom" but the plain text of the Bible disagrees with you:

No. I would argue that the plain text does agree with this view. But it will take us somewhat from the topic.

And elsewhere I think we have had this argument before. It is not difficult to see.

It applies to all nations - not just a select few - and it applies to eternal reward/punishment.

What I wrote is not effected by whether it applies to all the nations or not. That has little to do with it. Now, what I said was the Lord's word that many would say "Lord, Lord" would not enter into the kingdom of the heavens. But those who do the will of the Father. I said that that verse refers to the reward of the millennial kingdom.

In short, some people who are saved eternally will not participate in the millennial kingdom because of their immaturity and failure to allow Christ to fulfill His will in them in the church age. They will join those rewarded with the millennial kingdom afterwards.

Some of the servants were cast into the "outer darkness" for their slothfulness. They are nevertheless eternally saved.

But there is something else that I wanted to tell you. And that is that concerning what I would call "Unexpected Hope" I DID find some excellent expositions by G.H. Lang. These teachings do not negate the belief in eternal perdition. But they do persuasively present explanations why certain surprises of God's grace should be expected.

I appreciate this kind of careful scholarship. It is balanced. G.H. Lang is very good on a balanced disussion of the whole subject of judgment.

That's not what I said. I said you should open your eyes and see what's plainly before them.

Right. It is not exactly what you said.

(However, the subject of hope is straying off-topic. If you'd like a cure for your hopelessness, I'd be glad to discuss it in the appropriate place.)

That's not what I said. I don't think you can "cure" my devotion to the word of God by the history of long and tortured twistings of the message of Jesus that you have displayed on this forum.

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-12-2006 06:05 AM

This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-12-2006 06:05 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 05-11-2006 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 05-12-2006 10:52 AM jaywill has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17646
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 225 of 300 (311384)
05-12-2006 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
05-12-2006 6:04 AM


Re: Hope
jaywill writes:

I don't think you can "cure" my devotion to the word of God by the history of long and tortured twistings of the message of Jesus that you have displayed on this forum.

:laugh:

I don't have much "hope" of instilling any hope in you - but anybody who reads our posts can see who's doing the twisting. I "hope" to instill some hope in them, that they can avoid eternal torment without loud professions of "Lord! Lord!"

So, back to the topic. Do you have any evidence for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your particular interpretation of the Revelation?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jaywill, posted 05-12-2006 6:04 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2006 8:09 AM ringo has responded
 Message 230 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2006 8:26 AM ringo has not yet responded
 Message 242 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2006 11:26 PM ringo has responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019