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Author Topic:   The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 286 of 300 (313919)
05-20-2006 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Faith
05-19-2006 1:00 PM


Update
Hey Faith,
I'm not ignoring your post and I want to address it, but to do it justice takes some time.

I'm trying to get some planting done before it rains again and I'm helping my daughter with her first child, plus repainting my front room. Oh and I'm making new curtains. :eek:

I keep checking the board to reread where we are in this discussion and reading the Bible inbetween taking care of other things. I haven't disappeared just really really busy in the world outside EvC.

Have a great weekend. Hopefully I'll have my thoughts in order next week.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Faith, posted 05-19-2006 1:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 4:07 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 288 by jaywill, posted 05-24-2006 7:54 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Faith
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 300 (313941)
05-20-2006 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by purpledawn
05-20-2006 3:20 PM


Re: Update
No problem, I understand. I'm just ignoring some similar things I should be doing as a matter of fact. But I'll get to them eventually.

Just wanted to say please be sure to reread my post #284 because I added some edits, hoping to deal with some possible miscommunication in advance, as this thread doesn't have far to go at this point. I hate adding this post for that reason but you might have copied only what I had there before to answer later. That can happen.

Have a good weekend yourself. Enjoy your grandchild.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 05-20-2006 3:20 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2006 7:57 AM Faith has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 288 of 300 (314822)
05-24-2006 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by purpledawn
05-20-2006 3:20 PM


Re: Update
Further proof of the falsity of the Annhilation concept as eternal punishment:

"And it was given them that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. And in those days men will seek death and shall by no means find it; and they will long to die, and death flees from them" (Rev. 9:5,6).

Men will long to die because they think dying will release them from torment.

They think then that annhilation is not punishment but release from it. To not be, to be dead, they regard as the cessation of torment. God causes death to allude them though they seek it. This punishment lasts five months and death or annhilation will not release men from it.

Annhilation and death is sought by these men because it is deemed an escape from harm inflicted upon them. It is atypical and a false doctrine to teach that annhilation of non-existence is the topmost dread that sinners should fear from God's judgment. Revelation 9:4,5 proves that it is more typical that man seeks annhilation to escape from tormenting judgment.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by purpledawn, posted 05-20-2006 3:20 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 289 of 300 (314823)
05-24-2006 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
05-20-2006 4:07 PM


Life, Worms, Unquenchable Fire
Hey Faith,

I finally got it together. I did this in bits and pieces when I had time, so I hope it flows.

I did read your posts numbers 189 and 284 (with the edits). This post is in response to those posts. For anyone wanting to respond to my post, please make sure you have read Message 189 and Message 284 by Faith so you understand my response.

Concerning my OP statement: If one was to receive eternal torment as taught, then the person would still be "living". IOW being tormented throughout his eternal life, but this verse states that only the righteous receive eternal life.

In Message 189

Faith writes:

But in the usual sense of the word, we are all "alive" as sentient beings and THIS life -- which is really death in the Biblical sense --will continue for eternity and is quite capable of suffering torment eternally, while the righteous will receive the true life that is in Christ.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that eternal life really deals with the quality of life and not duration or unending existence. So when we look at the Matthew verse from the OP:

Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It is actually saying: These will go away into an age (not unending) of punishment (not a good life), but the righteous into an age of life (a good life filled with God’s blessings).

Ro 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even in this verse by Paul it would mean quality of life and not an unending existence. This would also be consistent with this verse from 1 John.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15.)

“Eternal Life” would be the quality of life within the person.

If this is what you are telling me, then there still isn’t any unending torment through endless time. One may have a tormented life without God, but it will end when the person dies. So it is a lifetime of torment or punishment, but not torment without end.

So my premise may have been wrong concerning the OP statement I quoted above, but what you are presenting, if I understand it correctly, would lead me to the same conclusion that there is no unending torment.

As far as whether all will be resurrected, I haven’t had time to look at that in relation to this new info you have presented to me and it would probably be a whole other topic worth of discussion on that. Obviously more than we have left in this thread. But it is something I will look into.

Now to Gehenna, which is my main point in this thread.

In Message 284

Faith writes:

The fact that there is a "worm that does not die" and a "fire that is not quenched" suggests that there is an eternal state that is capable of suffering these endless experiences.

Unquenchable is another word I think has been misunderstood. It also doesn’t mean unending. An unquenchable fire is one that can’t be put out, but it will only keep burning until there is nothing left to burn then it will go out. No fuel, no fire. The fire in Gehenna did go out once they stopped throwing bodies and renewing the fuel source. There is still no fire today.

The worm that does not die is another visual aid that I feel is being misunderstood. It isn’t talking about worms that never die. We know it is a reference back to Isaiah 66 where Isaiah describes the final end of the wicked. The righteous will be able to view the completed destruction of those who rejected God. "They shall go forth and look on the corpses of those who have rebelled against God; where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" (Isa. 66:24).

So the lesson in Mark 9:33-50 (Luke 9:46-50 and Matthew 18:1-14) is not using Gehenna as a visual for unending torment. It is the city garbage dump. The fire is constant because the fuel source is constant, the worms are constant because they feed off the constant source of corpses that are not being consumed by the fire. It is not an undying worm, but maggots that are constantly reproducing and constantly present in that pit. The maggots are all gone now. It was a place of destruction, not torture.

Mr 9:43
"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Now putting all this together with what you told me about “life” this statement today would be equivalent to:

If your hand causes you to do wrong, cut if off, it is better for you to enter your life with God crippled, than, having your two hands and end up on death row.

IMO, Jesus is addressing a quality of current life, not a future unending life. Gehenna then is like death row now.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 05-20-2006 4:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 290 of 300 (314834)
05-24-2006 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
10-30-2005 9:32 AM


purpledawn writes:

Eternal life is for the righteous and all others just cease to exist.

However, after one thousand years the false prophet and the Antichrist are still being tormented in the fire when they are joined by their master the devil:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever. [my emphasis] (Rev. 20:10)

Notice that the two previous people were cast into the fire 1,000 years earlier. See Revelation 19:20 and 20:1-6. When the devil arrives there the antichrist and the false prophet are still there. They have not been consumed. And it does not say that only the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever, but "they". And why? Because "they" have not nor will not be consumed into annhilation.

The Bible went out of its way to make sure that we all understood. The lost are not annhilated but eternally punished in torment. No one has proved why all those who are assigned their lot in the lake of fire should have a different result.

Whoseoever believes in Jesus the Son of God should not perish but have eternal life. See John 3:16.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 10-30-2005 9:32 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2006 8:21 AM jaywill has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 291 of 300 (315082)
05-25-2006 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by jaywill
05-24-2006 8:40 AM


Not the Lake of Fire
quote:
No one has proved why all those who are assigned their lot in the lake of fire should have a different result.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.

Have I mentioned I'm not talking about the lake of fire?

Gehenna is not the lake of fire and I don't think you have shown that it is. It was an acutal place at the time of the spoken words and still is. There is no fire there today. It is not a symbol of unending torment.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by jaywill, posted 05-24-2006 8:40 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by jaywill, posted 05-25-2006 9:51 PM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 293 by Buzsaw, posted 05-25-2006 11:27 PM purpledawn has not yet responded
 Message 294 by jaywill, posted 05-26-2006 10:38 AM purpledawn has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 292 of 300 (315205)
05-25-2006 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by purpledawn
05-25-2006 8:21 AM


Re: Not the Lake of Fire
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
Have I mentioned I'm not talking about the lake of fire?

Gehenna is not the lake of fire and I don't think you have shown that it is. It was an acutal place at the time of the spoken words and still is. There is no fire there today. It is not a symbol of unending torment.

Why in the topic do you write "No Eternal Torment"?

Did you think you would "kill two birds with one stone" or what?

And even if you are not talking about the lake of fire (or think you are not), some of us have shown that your interpretation of Christ's usage of "Gehenna" is not right either.

As Christ uses Gehenna, He WAS talking about eternal torment. That is what I think you have not refuted.

If man has authority to cast a corpse into the city dump of Gehenna then why does Jesus warn of God's additional authority to do so after one has been killed?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2006 8:21 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 300 (315211)
05-25-2006 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by purpledawn
05-25-2006 8:21 AM


Re: Not the Lake of Fire
I goofed.

Edited by buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2006 8:21 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 294 of 300 (315306)
05-26-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by purpledawn
05-25-2006 8:21 AM


Re: Not the Lake of Fire
Purpledawn,

I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.
I'm not talking about the Lake of Fire.

Have I mentioned I'm not talking about the lake of fire?

In your Topic Heading you wrote:

"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"
"No Eternal Torment"

Did you realize that you were talking about "Eternal Torment?"

Is there a real significant difference between the concept of Gehenna as Christ used it and the lake of fire as used by His apostle? You haven't shown a significant difference.

You attempt to show that Christ was refering to the literal Gehenna which we all know is no longer burning. You have not successfully proved that that is what He really meant by a place:

1.) The fire of which is never quenched
2.) The sinner's worm never dies
3.) Where God excercises an authority beyond man's to cast a sinner there.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by purpledawn, posted 05-25-2006 8:21 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by purpledawn, posted 05-26-2006 7:13 PM jaywill has responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 295 of 300 (315482)
05-26-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by jaywill
05-26-2006 10:38 AM


Re: Not the Lake of Fire
quote:
In your Topic Heading you wrote:
Actually I wrote: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment and then proceeded to explain my position in Message 1. The heading is not the argument. The heading is to catch the attention of readers and give a general idea of what to expect within the thread. Like the headline of a newspaper. The title is not the whole story.

Actually the eternal fires of "Hell" do not exist anymore.
The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.

I'm addressing the usage of Gehenna

quote:
Is there a real significant difference between the concept of Gehenna as Christ used it and the lake of fire as used by His apostle? You haven't shown a significant difference.
And you haven't shown they are the same either. See Message 20, Message 188, Message 203, Message 217, and especially Message 264.

quote:
You attempt to show that Christ was refering to the literal Gehenna which we all know is no longer burning. You have not successfully proved that that is what He really meant by a place:

1.) The fire of which is never quenched
2.) The sinner's worm never dies


How was Message 289 unsuccessful at explaining these as they were used in the Book of Mark? As I've said, in the Book of Mark, Jesus is not comparing Gehenna to anything, therefore I feel that he is referring to the actual place.

quote:
3.) Where God excercises an authority beyond man's to cast a sinner there.
This one is used in Matthew 10

10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

and from what I can tell Jesus is essentially telling his disciples not to fear death incurred because of their faith.

I don't read it as saying only God has authority to cast someone in Gehenna. This talks more of ability than authority.

But again, even this verse talks of destruction, not unending torture.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by jaywill, posted 05-26-2006 10:38 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jaywill, posted 05-27-2006 5:54 AM purpledawn has responded

jaywill
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 296 of 300 (315554)
05-27-2006 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by purpledawn
05-26-2006 7:13 PM


Re: Not the Lake of Fire

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your Topic Heading you wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually I wrote: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment and then proceeded to explain my position in Message 1. The heading is not the argument. The heading is to catch the attention of readers and give a general idea of what to expect within the thread. Like the headline of a newspaper. The title is not the whole story.

Newspapers and magazines often employ sensational in their titles to attract attention. Sometimes such tactics are downright deceptive. I once could not resist buying a science magazine which said this: “Can The Future Exist if a Black Hole Swallows the Past?” After reading the article I felt taken. It was not really about a black hole swallowing the past but swallowing evidence of certain physical objects that once existed.

But the advertizing sure worked to get me to purchase the magazine. Okay, you want a little license to spruce up your advertizing a little … “No Eternal Torment.” But what you really want to talk about is how the city dump in Jerusalem has burned out.

Mind you that I could easily do the same thing. I could say “Most Christians are Going to Hell.” I bet that would get a lot of attention. But since Hell is really Hades I would be really saying that most Christians have died or will die. And Hades is just the realm of the those who have ceased physical life. So I understand that you wanted to get an eye catching sensational topic description.


Actually the eternal fires of "Hell" do not exist anymore.
The NT word translated as hell is actually Gehenna which is Greek for the Valley of Hinnom.

Hell or Hades has its comfortable section and its uncomfortable section. The rich man went to Hades and was in the flame in Luke’s gospel. That fire or “fire” or torment has NOTHING to do with what goes on in the valley of Hinnom. The smoldering out of the valley of Hinnom has no effect on the fire of Hades in which the lost rich man found himself:

” … and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out abd said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame.” (Luke 16:21b-24)

It does not say that the rich man was put into Gehenna, the burning city dump. It says he died and was buried. He had a proper burial rather have his corpse tossed into the trash. He was in a tormenting flame in Hades. There is no relation to the rich man in Hades in a flame with the smoldering corpses in the valley of Hinnom. Therefore the extinguishing of that valley’s fires have no effect on the rich man’s suffering in Hades.

You will have to prove that the fires in Hades also extinguish for some reason.

The objection put forth by some, if not by you, is that this is a parable. In other words it is fiction. They MEAN that it never really happened if it is a fiction. I saw no convincing argument that Luke 16:19-31 was not something which Christ witnessed. He mentions no person’s name in any parable – i.e. “Lazarus.” I think someone tried to refute this.

But the whole idea of Christ speaking fictitiously about a dead man’s corpse talking in the valley of Hinnom to Abraham and Lazarus within earshot is ridiculous. If such an event was impossible why would Christ use such fantastic descriptions as the ground for serious moral warnings?

Does the Department of Motor Vehicles warn citizens not to violate traffic laws with stories about the Boogy Man coming to punish violators? Who would take that seriously? Why would Jesus warn us with a frivolous and impossible fictitious fable?

Any objections based on the science of the matter can be refuted by reminding the reader that “The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:9). Though I don’t know how God keeps the unrighteous under punishment as far as the science of it goes, God knows how. So we should be warned and believe accordingly that the authority and power to punish that immaterial part of man’s being, He possesses after one has died and been buried.

To communicate such a simple truth to us who are yet alive Christ was quite effective with this record of Luke 16:19-31. And I think we ignore it or explain it away at our own peril.


I'm addressing the usage of Gehenna

The facts of Luke 16:19-31 and the teaching of Christ concering Gehenna are in harmony:

God displayed His authority to hurt the rich man AFTER he had died. And He teaches the same using the term Gehenna. To fear those who can only kill the body and have no more that they can do to you, is not the greater fear. The greater fear should be reserved for God, who after you have died, has the authority to cast you into a punishing fire, which Christ calls “Gehenna” to communicate the moral nature of that place. It is similar to the valley of Hinnom but on a much more permenant and everlasting nature upon man’s entire being, not just his physical body. His soul and spirit are in danger of the displeasure of this One Who has this authority if he will not be saved.


And you haven't shown they are the same either. See Message 20, Message 188, Message 203, Message 217, and especially Message 264.

Good record keeping. But I don’t intend to chase links to past exchanges which themselves were probably refuted. It will most likely be going in circles with you.

Anyway, those readers caring enough to follow your links to past comments can read this discussion from the beginning and decide where the more sound arguments have been presented.

The rest of your comment seems a rehash of the idea that the four gospels have nothing to do with each other. And by isolating Christ’s teachings in disjunct and totally seperated and independent segments, you can present a case that Hell is Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom which no longer is a danger to anyone.
You have to go through quite many acrobatics to divide and conqueror the Scripture to make your opinion come out like Christ’s teaching.

I don't read it as saying only God has authority to cast someone in Gehenna. This talks more of ability than authority.

The text used the word “authority.” So I read in it that God has the "authority." Of course authority includes ability there also.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : typos!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by purpledawn, posted 05-26-2006 7:13 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2006 7:09 AM jaywill has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 297 of 300 (315555)
05-27-2006 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by jaywill
05-27-2006 5:54 AM


Re: Not the Lake of Fire
quote:
You will have to prove that the fires in Hades also extinguish for some reason.
No I don't. Gehenna and Hades are not the same. Hades is not translated "Hell" in my Bible. Also remember that Hades is thrown into your lake of fire. So if your lake of fire is hell, then Hades isn't. If Hades is Hell, then the lake of fire isn't.

I have no problem with Hades being called Hell. Hades is considered underground and that is essentially what hell means Message 185. But Hades, as pointed out earlier Message 184 and as the parable depicts, has two sections (Tartarus-fire and Elysium-paradise). So if you call Hades, Hell, then you have to say which side. If Hell is the hot side of Hades, then Hell and Hades are not equivalent.

In the parable Message 35, Lazarus and the Rich Man found in the Book of Luke, the word Gehenna is not used. Jesus was speaking of Hades, the underworld. Gehenna and Hades are not the same and I haven't said that they are. I understand the lesson of the parable.

When Jesus is talking with his disciples in the Book of Mark he is not telling them a parable. In Luke, Jesus is telling a parable.

Not much else I can say. You don't seem to understand what I am saying, so it is very hard to discuss possibilities.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by jaywill, posted 05-27-2006 5:54 AM jaywill has not yet responded

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 298 of 300 (315558)
05-27-2006 7:22 AM


Lake of Fire
During this discussion, many have confused what I'm saying concerning Gehenna, which was first translated "hell" in the KJV, with the Lake of Fire in Revelation.

I found this info on the Lake of Fire and the Dead Sea.

The lake of fire in Revelation may have used the Dead Sea as inspiration. It is something that would need more study, but it is intriguing.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 299 of 300 (315564)
05-27-2006 8:02 AM


Final Summary
I feel that the word "hell" was an inaccurate translation of the word Gehenna. I feel that associating Gehenna, Hades, and the Lake of Fire with the word "hell" is very misleading. I've shown in Message 11 that using the word "hell" for the overall domain of the dead, Hades, would be appropriate.

Gehenna was a very real place during Jesus' ministry and I haven't read a clear argument that shows me Jesus was using the name to refer to a different place in the context of what the authors wrote.

Gehenna referred to the Valley of Hinnom.
Hades is the name of the underworld where the dead reside.
The lake of fire in Revelation has no name.

Due to this discussion I have learned that they are not interchangeable although many claim they are. During the course of this discussion, I haven't seen a clear line to connect these three "places" as being one and the same place.

Since each author has a purpose for their writing, I don't feel that knowing the reality of Gehenna negates future accountability at final judgment. What that might actually be will take more discussion.

In the course of this discussion, I did find the later discussions on eternal and forever and ever very interesting. Message 186, Message 287, and Message 289. Unfortunately not enough thread left to finish what we started.

I know I look at the Bible differently than most, but different doesn't automaticly mean wrong. I try to understand the lessons presented to the ancient audiences, whether that agrees with current dogma and tradition or not.

Although many would disagree, I am quite willing to admit when my conclusion is wrong if clearly shown. I've learned many things through these discussions. As I showed above, Faith brought ideas on Biblical life and death, which sparked more investigation.

I am not a closed book; but I do investigate before committing it to ink, so to speak.

Thanks for the lively discussion.


AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 300 of 300 (315566)
05-27-2006 8:03 AM


End of Thread
300's the limit
Stow the prose,
No more discussion
It's time to close.

Finis

See you in another thread. Magic Wand


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