Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

Pretty close. I would also emphasize (if I haven't already) the fact that one of the things that prisoners "give up" when they surrender is responsibility for their own actions.Surrender is never considered to be permanent. Prisoners try to escape from their captors, they expect to be freed by their compatriots if possible, they expect to be paroled. While they are prisoners, they are as uncooperative as possible, they lie, they steal, they ridicule their captors. Almost any action is acceptable because even a prsisoner does what he can to oppose his enemy.A surrendered prisoner does all the things a loyal subordinate is not supposed to do. Subordination and surrender are practically opposites.In short, it's hard to think of a worse term than "surrender" for our relationship to God.

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The teaching that I'm questioning is the teaching that one should surrender (give up) control of their life to God/Jesus. It isn't just the word surrender. It is the teaching that is being discussed.Control of your life, not control of your ego or will or desires. The teaching is that one must give up, relinquish, or yield control of one's life to God/Jesus.

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In the Army, before a soldier can be properly useful as a subordinate, they have to surrender their Ego and desire to be independent.

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Maybe when one is forced to serve, but when we choose to serve we don't lose our ego or independence any more than we do to any supervisor in a job. That is one difference between choosing to serve and being forced to serve.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I haven't read through all of the previous posts in the thread, so this has probably been asked already. But how do you explain the following passage? It seems to me to speak quite clearly and forcefully of the concept of "surrender":

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Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death”
even death on a cross!

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(Phil. 2:5-8; NIV)

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I haven't read through all of the previous posts in the thread, so this has probably been asked already. But how do you explain the following passage? It seems to me to speak quite clearly and forcefully of the concept of "surrender":

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This thread is not about the word surrender by itself and its various meanings, it is about the teaching that one must give up (surrender) control of their lives. In Philippians, Paul was saying be like Christ. He isn't suggesting that believers must give up control of their lives, IMO he is saying our attitude should be humble.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

OK, I suspect you have answers for the following, but I'm curious to hear what they are: Filling with the Holy Spirit is parallel to drunkenness. Doesn't this imply that it involves a giving up of control to the HS? Doesn't a "living sacrifice" imply a giving over of control to God?

You do realize that Paul is not God or Jesus, right?From Message 1: It is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives.

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Filling with the Holy Spirit is parallel to drunkenness. Doesn't this imply that it involves a giving up of control to the HS?

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Again the teaching is that we are to give up control to God/Jesus not to the Holy Spirit.Reading from the beginning of the paragraph instead of from of middle we have: One needs control to be careful. Paul does not equate being filled with the Holy Spirit to drunkenness. IMO, drunkenness is losing control not giving up control and unless you contend that those filled with the Holy Spirit remain in a state of drunkenness their entire life, I don't see that that compares to giving up control of one's life.

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Doesn't a "living sacrifice" imply a giving over of control to God?

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Essentially Paul is talking about giving of wrong behavior for right behavior, which is a choice. This is submitting to God's laws or commands (which has been addressed several times in this thread), but this is not giving up control of one's life to God/Jesus. I don't see giving a sacrifice as giving up control.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Of course. But aren't his writings part of the Bible, therefore biblical? Your contention is that "Surrendering to Jesus/God is not Biblical", so any part of the Bible should be fair game. Or do you only accept the "red letters" as biblical? So you don't think the Bible supports the idea that the Holy Spirit is God? This is orthodox Christian doctrine.

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Of course. But aren't his writings part of the Bible, therefore biblical? Your contention is that "Surrendering to Jesus/God is not Biblical", so any part of the Bible should be fair game. Or do you only accept the "red letters" as biblical?

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That's the title of the thread, which gives the subject of the thread. It isn't necessarily the exact wording of my contention or argument. Message 1 contains my argument. While Paul's letters are in the Bible, they do not claim to be passing on commands received directly from God/Jesus.

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So you don't think the Bible supports the idea that the Holy Spirit is God? This is orthodox Christian doctrine.

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I don't feel that the HS is God, but even if you feel the HS is also God, Paul does not claim to be passing on commands from the HS, God, or Jesus.None of the verses you shared from Paul address giving up control of one's life. Paul leans towards self-control.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Manifestly false: Paul, does indicate when he is giving his opinion and when he speaks not according to the command of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Purpledawn writes: I think Purpledawn's problem is not being able to imagine that God's control of one's life is a matter of living in a harmonious coordination - a fellowship of cooperation and communion.Here we see two parallel passages showing the Holy Spirit speaking in the believer being the believer's speaking: One verse says that the Spirit of the Son of God cries in the believe Abba, Father. The other passage declares that the believer cries Abba, Father.This is a mingling of lives. This is a harmonius blending of God's life and man's life. The Spirit bears witness with the human spirit that the regenerated person is one of the children of God."He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)The Holy Spirit, the Third of the Triune God becomes one united and mingled blending with the born again human spirit. He cries the the Father in our crying to the Father. In our crying to the Father the Spirit of the resurrected Christ cries to the Father.This is the control of God over the believer in terms of a mingling and a harmonious blending.Once again the Holy Spirit Who is indeed God Himself, is pictured as a dove in the New Testament. This should signal His gentleness rather than His coercion.Witness Lee writes on Matthew 3:16: Yielding to the filling of the Holy Spirit is surrendering to God's control. Yet this control moves man's heart to be single and simple in caring for the will of God. There is a communion of the Holy Spirit in which He regulates our tastes, attitudes, and actions.And it is also a maturity into which one must grow by turning over more and more of one's inner being over to the controling yet gentle Spirit of Christ.So God control is also a new self control. For a fruit of the Holy Spirit is self control. It is something like power steering on an automobile. In the steering mechanism is a greater power through the hydrolic device coordinating with the turn of the wheel.The former sinner is regulated and strengthened by the indwelling Spirit of Christ. "I am able to do all things in Him Who empowers me." (Philippians 4:13) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Obviously I disagree with you concerning Paul's authority and anymore discussion concerning it would be off topic for this thread, but I have addressed the verses quoted from Paul's writings concerning the topic and read in context they don't address giving up control of one's life to God/Jesus.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Doesn't this verse capture the concept of "surrender"?: Of course I realize that this is Paul speaking again. And that it's not a command, but a commentary on his own relationship to Christ.But seeing as Paul's life is to be an example for other Christians: this is indirect instruction for Christians.And seeing as Paul's words are in Scripture, which orthodox Christianity maintains is inspired by God, this should be seen (by orthodox Christians, at least) as God instructing us through the writings of Paul.

I know you don't like quoting Paul, so here's one from Jesus Himself: What does a "yoke" imply if not submission/surrender to the one driving the team of oxen?

You brought it up by incorrectly stating that the Apostle Paul, whose letters Peter regarded as Scripture, did not speak the commands of God. Since I found it patently false, I diverged long enough to correct your error.Now back to "surrender". I really don't care how you choose to define surrender as "giving up control of one's life". I will not argue with your particular definition. My point here is that surrender to God is biblical. And here is another portion of the New Testament to further demonstrate that it is: We will see that Paul teaches the opposite of let-ing sin reign. And that is surrendering to God. There are two experiences here. One is presenting or surrendering one's members to sin. And the other is presenting or surrendering one's members to God as one who is alive from the dead.I'll let you stew over whether this is loss of self control or not. I don't care. It is surrendering. On the negative side, surrending to sin. On the positive side surrendering to God. Sin reigned over those under the law. Grace reigns over those under grace. The believer is to allow this grace to reign. In other words, the believer is to surrender himself to the reign of the grace of God. Paul's question is clear. Either a man is an obedient slave surrendered to sin or and obedient slave obedient unto righteousness. That is the righteousness which comes by grace - the enjoyment and enabling of God who dwells in the believer."The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23)"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen." (Gal. 6:18)"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Philemon 23)In these three verses we locate the grace of God. It is with the innermost part of the believer's being, his spirit. This empowering grace to which the believer is to surrender is simply the indwelling Christ who is with the believer's spirit:"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)Coming back to Romans chapter 6, we are to be "slaves" surrendered up to this indwelling grace which is the indwelling Lord with the regenerated human spirit. There is a dichotomy here. The Roman believers were in the past slaves of sin. Now they are slaves of God. Now they obey from the heart the gospel of grace. Now they yield up their members as weapons of righteousness. Now they are under the reign of New Testament grace which is with their spirit. They have surrendered up to God to be slaves of God's grace resulting in righteous behavior. In the past they were surrendered up to sin. Now they are surrendered up to righteousness. Enslavement means surrender. This could hardly be clearer. Surrender is implied in the phrase "slaves to righteousness" Again Paul presses the dichotomy of SLAVES TO SIN verses SLAVES TO GOD. How can we that surrender is not involved in being enslaved to either sin or to God? The whole point of this section of Romans is to exhort disciples to surrender up to another master for His control.Turn your subjection from sin as your master to God as the indwelling grace as your Master. We are to be enslaved to God. We are to be slaves of righteousness. We are to yield our members to this new living Master. To be enslaved to sin is to be freed from God. Conversely to be enslaved to God is to be freed from sin.Surrender to Christ and to God is demonstrated as biblical.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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What does a "yoke" imply if not submission/surrender to the one driving the team of oxen?

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I addressed that in Message 13.I have already agreed many many times in this thread that submission is addressed. We do that every day when we decide to follow the rules of our society, but we aren't giving up control of our life.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz