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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 4 of 301 (437068)
11-28-2007 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
11-28-2007 10:23 AM


Greatest I am writes:
Should we love Satan?
Should we love Boromir, who tried to steal the One Ring from Frodo? Should we love Long John Silver, who tried to kill Jim Hawkins? Should we love Guy Montag, who burned books?
Satan is depicted in different ways in different parts of the Bible because he's a fictional character. In each instance, he has a literary function.
Yes, those functions are often misunderstood. One of the worst misunderstandings is thinking of him as an entity.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 11-28-2007 10:23 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by bluescat48, posted 11-29-2007 7:05 AM ringo has not replied
 Message 7 by Greatest I am, posted 11-29-2007 8:42 AM ringo has not replied
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-30-2007 4:31 AM ringo has replied
 Message 11 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-30-2007 10:54 AM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 9 of 301 (437493)
11-30-2007 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
11-30-2007 4:31 AM


Re: The Irony of it all
Phat writes:
Surely you have heard variations of this quote, however:
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn't exist."
That's page 1 in the Conspiracy Theory Handbook: If you don't see the conspiracy, it must be working. If you deny the conspiracy, you're part of it.
Others believe that since we (humans) become the decisions that we make, we create our own Heaven and Hell.
Since we are capable of making our own lives - and the lives of others - Better or Worse (heaven or hell), why attribute our own deeds to unseen forces?

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 11-30-2007 4:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 10:10 AM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 301 (437980)
12-02-2007 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-02-2007 10:10 AM


Re: The Irony of it all
Phat writes:
I have seen people behave in such a vindicative, manipulative, and purposeful way that were there no actual devil, they themselves could assume the role.
Exactly. Why do they need a "real" Satan to understudy the role?
... without the belief in unseen forces Christianity becomes just another do-good philosophy.
What's wrong with being "just another" do-good philosophy?
You haven't answered my question:Why attribute our own deeds to unseen forces?
All you've said is, "I wanna."

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-02-2007 10:10 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 27 of 301 (438810)
12-06-2007 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by jaywill
12-06-2007 5:53 AM


jaywill writes:
I think there should be universal agreement that Satan in the garden of evil was out of place and where he should not have been.
Well, there isn't.
In the context of this discussion, I'll agree that the serpent character in Genesis played a similar role to the Satan character in Job. They were like Goldfinger and Dr. No.
Satan's role was to test Job - at God's behest. The serpent's role was to test Adam - at God's behest. So he definitely wasn't "out of place". He was on his mark and on cue.
Too bad some people misunderstand that.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jaywill, posted 12-06-2007 5:53 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by IamJoseph, posted 12-06-2007 12:26 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 301 (439096)
12-07-2007 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jaywill
12-07-2007 8:21 AM


jaywill writes:
Man was created to be joined to God. Satan ran ahead of God, deceived and challenged man and as a result man was instead joined to Satan.
That's the gist of your error. You put Satan ahead of God.
Man was "joined to Satan" by the gift of free will - the ability to question and decide for ourselves. That's what all the stories of Satan are about - good and bad decisions.
That was the way God wanted it. Any other (mis)understanding diminishes God.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2007 8:21 AM jaywill has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 74 of 301 (439794)
12-10-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jaywill
12-10-2007 12:23 PM


Re: A God-man verses a Good-man
jaywill writes:
God declares the human heart "incurable".
Mm hmm.... Now, what was the topic? "Poor Satan, so misunderstood."
Interesting that your own quote (with a little extra context) doesn't mention Satan at all:
quote:
Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jer 17:11 As the partridge sitteth on eggs, and hatcheth them not; so he that getteth riches, and not by right, shall leave them in the midst of his days, and at his end shall be a fool.
Notice verse 10: "I try the reins", not some character called "Satan".
(And isn't verse 11 reminiscent of Job, reminding us that what we have is not our own?)

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 12:23 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 3:42 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 76 of 301 (439860)
12-10-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jaywill
12-10-2007 3:42 PM


Re: A God-man verses a Good-man
jaywill writes:
The RULER of the authority of the air is an evil spirit....
Again, your own reference doesn't say that:
quote:
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
It's talking about "lusts of the flesh" - i.e. making bad decisions based on selfishness. No foreign entity is required for that.
... even the Solomon in the Old Testament speaking by the Spirit of God tells us virtually the same thing as what Jeremiah wrote about the heart of man:
quote:
"Surely there is not a righteous man on the earth who does good and does not sin." (Eccl. 7:13)
Well, my Bible quotes Ecclesiastes 7:13 thusly:
quote:
Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Besides not matching your "quote", it seems to disagree with you completely, saying that it's God who makes things crooked.
Then Solomon tell us that man was not created this way, but somehow has sought out deceitful ways:
quote:
"See, this alone have I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes" (Ecc. 7:29)
And yet again, your own reference doesn't blame "Satan" for the schemes that we cook up.
Just because Ringo doesn't WANT to listen to the New Testament prophets that it is the evil spirit operating in man, doesn't make it not relevant or not true.
Ringo loves to listen to the New Testament. It's the Jaywill Testament, where everything is blamed on God's evil twin, that Ringo doesn't like.
Edited by Ringo, : Spilling.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 3:42 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 6:07 PM ringo has replied
 Message 82 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 7:41 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 301 (439872)
12-10-2007 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jaywill
12-10-2007 6:07 PM


Re: A God-man verses a Good-man
jaywill writes:
Ecclesiastes 7:20
"Surely there is not a righteous man on the earth who does good and does not sin."
Still doesn't support your position. Nobody's disputing that all men are sinful/imperfect. The question is: Should we blame some evil spook or should we take responsibility for our own actions?

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 6:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 6:59 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 301 (439898)
12-10-2007 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jaywill
12-10-2007 7:41 PM


Re: Leave Me responsible for something !!
jaywill writes:
What is blamed on the Devil is what is blamed on the Devil.
Obviously untrue. As I have demonstrated, you invoke "de Debbil" when no such thing is mentioned in the text at all.
Question for the zealots on this forum who are eager always to say "THERE'S NOOOOOO Satan in the Old Testament !!"
Nobody has said that, of course. What's Satan is Satan and what ain't, ain't.
Okay, how did the serpent have this inside story about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
God might have told him - or he might have just eaten from the tree (fruit-snake ). "He must have been Satan" is a thoroughly unnecessary option.
How can man have dominion over the serpent if the serpent is smarter about what is going on than man?
The serpent wasn't "smarter than man". Man is capable of learning and has learned lots of things from lots of animals.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jaywill, posted 12-10-2007 7:41 PM jaywill has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 301 (440923)
12-15-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jaywill
12-15-2007 9:09 AM


jaywill writes:
The peach tree yields peaches. It does not have to be commanded to do so. It has a life which has a peach producing nature. It has a peach growing law in its life.
Similarly, man yields his fruits - and one of those fruits happens to be screwups. He doesn't have to be commanded to produce screwups. He has a life which has a screwup producing nature. He has a screwup growing law in his life.
No Satan required.
(In fact, the Satan concept is so unnecessary that you don't feel it necessary to mention him at all in this post - in a thread about Satan.)

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2007 9:09 AM jaywill has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 301 (441357)
12-17-2007 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by jaywill
12-17-2007 8:07 AM


Re: The Satan Concealment Crew
jaywill writes:
God created a being which was exceedinly intelligent and good. He corrupted himself and became the opposite of all that God is.
How can a "being which was exceedinly intelligent and good" corrupt himself? Doesn't that suggest that he was poorly designed in the first place?
And when God created man, He made him even worse? He made the second creation susceptible to the first, flawed creation?
You're portraying your god as incompetent.
To eat of the forbidden tree was one problem - a problem of disobedience. But it was also a problem of taking into his being poison.
Interesting that you refer to the knowledge of good and evil as "poison".

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2007 8:07 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2007 11:09 AM ringo has replied
 Message 104 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2007 11:22 AM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 108 of 301 (441394)
12-17-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by jaywill
12-17-2007 11:09 AM


Re: "Death" Hidden in a Nice Name !
jaywill writes:
It is not the knowledge of good and evil that is poison.
It is the being who used this attractive sounding label to hide behind. Now if Satan had come to man in his ugliness he would have been rejected. He came hiding out behind something seeming so noble, right and good.
But it was God who created the tree and the fruit. It didn't "seem" good - it was good:
quote:
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
As Satan did suggest some terms to God in the book of Job, and God accepted those terms - so it could have been in Genesis.
This is Bible Study, not Fairy Tale Theater. Stop wasting everybody's time with coulda-beens and deal with what the Bible says.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil could have been the name given to it by Satan to conceal that it really was the Satanic principle of rebellion and independence from God.
That's the worst perversion of the Bible I've seen in a while.
It was clearly God who labelled the tree:
quote:
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
That was well before the snake came along. (And his name wasn't "Satan".)

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2007 11:09 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by IamJoseph, posted 12-17-2007 1:20 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 113 of 301 (441490)
12-17-2007 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jaywill
12-17-2007 8:26 PM


Re: Some thoughts on Zechariah 3 / Genesis 3
jaywill writes:
... and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, denoting Satan (Gen. 2:8-9)
Wrong.
God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He pronounced it "very good". (See Message 108.) Nothing in Genesis 2 "denotes Satan", least of all the tree.
You're not paying any attention to the Bible at all here. You're just making up your own demented version.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2007 8:26 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by IamJoseph, posted 12-17-2007 9:10 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 115 of 301 (441503)
12-17-2007 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by IamJoseph
12-17-2007 9:10 PM


Re: Some thoughts on Zechariah 3 / Genesis 3
IamJoseph writes:
... all my own views are conjurings only.
You should use that as your signature.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by IamJoseph, posted 12-17-2007 9:10 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by IamJoseph, posted 12-17-2007 9:37 PM ringo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 301 (442378)
12-20-2007 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by jaywill
12-20-2007 7:54 PM


jaywill writes:
In the oldest book of the Bible, Job, it is clear that Satan wants to KILL Job. God has to place a hedge around Job to prevent him from being killed by Satan.
Reference, please?
In my Bible, God brings up the subject of Job. Satan claims that Job is loyal only because God protects him and his possessions:
quote:
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for naught?
Job 1:10 Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
In the book of Job God has to specifically command Satan not to kill Job.
Satan is allowed to do anything up to but not including killing Job. Why? Because killing Job would negate the whole point of the exercise. You can't test somebody by killing him. If Satan was so clever, why would he ruin his own master plan?
God's reminder not to kill Job seems like an extra-clear instruction to a not-too-bright employee.

Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2007 7:54 PM jaywill has not replied

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