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Author Topic:   Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 151 of 301 (443570)
12-25-2007 6:17 PM


We are dealing with a deep subject. I do not have all the answers. There are aspects of it that I do not understand.
Dr. Donald Barnhouse suggested that the existence of TIME is in conjunction with the arising of more than one will in the universe. Barnhouse said with no other will but the will of God there is eternity. And when another being established a will contrary to the will of God, time, decay, degradation came about.
The main contrary will will be crushed after a long dispute for the edification and education of the universe. Then there will return only one will to the creation - God's will. And the eternal age of Paradise will commence again.
This was Barnhouse's way of thinking about it in "The Invisible War".
When we hear the phrase "the will of God" we must think of all that is beautiful, all that is paradise, all that is peaceful and full of love and harmony.
As long as something in us recoils when we think of "the will of God" to some extent we are still deceived human beings.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 152 of 301 (443600)
12-25-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by jaywill
12-25-2007 5:41 PM


Re: a history of the devil
You may have an impressive knowledge of mythology and literature. But the things I am teaching here are not derived from my study of the writings of Milton or Dante. So I am really not interested in Paradise Lost or even ancient mythologies.
Pre-Adamic happenings I derive from the Bible.
er, no. they don't. that's exactly the point i'm trying to make. if you read the bible, front to back, you do not come to these conclusions. if you read it back to front, you can only mistakenly come to them by misinterpretting references.
and you misinterpret those references because it's common cultural knowledge that the serpent in the garden was satan. it's common cultural knowledge because of milton. whether or not you think you're discussing paradise lost, you are. that's the place where this story first appears -- not the bible.
In this discussion I have already spoken to WHY I believe that cerain utterances in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are instances of "the prophetic past". The reasons I gave were biblical.
and flawed. once again, you are making entirely the wrong comparisons. ezekiel 28 describes the cherubim in the garden. the only cherubim in the book of genesis are the ones god places there to keep adam and eve out: they protect the garden. that theme fits with the message of ezekiel 28: someone trusted to protect something. you, instead, concentrate on the betray, and draw on milton's story which connects the serpent (who betrays neither man nor god any more than man himself does) with the devil.
the same with isaiah 14, which is directed at a king of babylon -- one known historically for building towers -- who thinks he can sit in the heavens as god. the obvious biblical image is the tower of babel, where the citizens of babylon build a tower to reach the heavens. it's only reading it backwards using milton's name for the devil "lucifer" and a mangled translation that one comes to your conclusion.
in other words, you're talking about milton. not the bible. in fact, your little war on heaven on story plainly contradicts the bible in a few places, such as the book of revelation, which is prophetic future.
I have never read Paradise Lost.
neither have i. but you picked the story up from somewhere, the same as we learn about "adam's apple." and the source is not the bible -- it's background cultural mythology.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by jaywill, posted 12-25-2007 5:41 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 12-25-2007 11:57 PM arachnophilia has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 153 of 301 (443601)
12-25-2007 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by arachnophilia
12-25-2007 11:49 PM


Re: a history of the devil
I have never read Paradise Lost either, but its amazing how that same basic dogma has carried over from 1667! I don't really see the definite connection by reading the Bible alone....its always what was taught to me...by Pastors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by arachnophilia, posted 12-25-2007 11:49 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by arachnophilia, posted 12-26-2007 12:15 AM Phat has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 154 of 301 (443602)
12-25-2007 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by jaywill
12-25-2007 5:56 PM


spiritual warfare and mental gymnastics
Concerning spiritual warfare Arach retorts:
i'm sorry, you get these rules from where?
Arach, sit back and take a deep breath and open your mind ... listen.
These principles are derived from the EXPERIENCE of many of God's saints down through the centries. But not from experiences alone. Also they come from a careful examination of spiritual warfare as it occured throughout the Bible.
in other words, from some people's interpretation of the bible.
We're not playing around with toys here Arach. This stuff is real. God is real. Christ is real. The enemy of Christ and of God's people is real.
In fact the closer one gets to wanting to draw close to Jesus for salvation the more he or she will often notice how circumstances and people begin to kick up trouble of all kinds to keep one back.
what a shitty saviour you must have. here he is, supposedly saving us from... what, exactly? and not even succeding? you sir are claiming that christ died in vain, and the devil has power over our lives. you might want to rethink that position, and re-read the gospel.
The night I called on the name of Jesus and set myself to be a disciple of Jesus, that very night an old "girlfriend" called out of nowhere to distract me and pull me back into my old life style.
It was not of herself. This was activity in the spiritual realm belonging to spiritual warfare.
yes, your ex-girlfriend was possesed by the devil. and we wonder why people think fundamentalist christianity is a cult. look, jay, think about it like this.
your ex-girlfriend is a person. not the enemy. maybe you should have read that as a sign that you were supposed to show her a better way. did you ever stop to think of that? evangelism doesn't work via the cold shoulder.
jesus told us to love and have compassion on the people around us who needed our help, and to share the good news. not hide it, and stay away from the outside world. even if that outside world is rife with sin -- jesus himself certain knew it was, yet there is the commandment to go out into it.
Someimes even when a person sets their heart on reading the Bible each night all kinds of destractions will begin to happen. There is a cosmic battle over the hearts and minds of men and women. And there are some principles that we notice in conjunction with these battles.
perhaps you won't listen to me from my own experience, but i'll tell you anyways. it's in your head. satan doesn't need to tempt mankind. in his absence, we'd invent him anyways. as he have done, over and over. the moment you drop the paranoia, it all goes away. the moment you actually trust in your savious, it all goes away.
the battle has already been won. you can put down your spiritual guns now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by jaywill, posted 12-25-2007 5:56 PM jaywill has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 155 of 301 (443605)
12-26-2007 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by jaywill
12-25-2007 6:10 PM


Re: a history of the devil
I agree that man strayed from God's will. However, there was a line in the sand. That line was called the tree of the knowledge of good and eveil.
and "no other gods." and "no idols." and "no polyester." etc. they're all lines in the sand, all 613 of 'em. we break every one. you break them. i break them. we are not god -- we cannot be god. and god understands this. because the lord is loving and wise, he forgives us.
Once he crossed the line and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - SIN entered into man.
er, no, by most peoples' counts (excluding jar) eating of the tree was sin in the first place. in other words, for man to disobey god, he had to already have been capable of sin.
Yes, it was not good even to think about eating or having a tendency to even want to. These were not counted by God as trangression. Once the line was crossed and man ate he was joined to Satan.
but satan just isn't in the story. their's a rather intelligent serpent, but no satan. in fact, it seems like the snake had probably already eaten of the tree. and we can't even say that was wrong of him. we don't know if god commanded him not to. but apparently telling man about it was the line for him.
You tell me WHY God commmited the creation under Adam's dominion sayiong "Let them have dominion over ..."
Why does the Creator need Adam to have dominion? Doesn't God have all the dominion.
God wants a counterpart. He really wants a counterpart to harmonize with Him and express Him. I may not be able to explain WHY He wants this counterpart. But He just does.
"it's lonely at the top."
look, i'm not disagreeing with you. but as the point stands, satan is merely the prosecution. and man currently falls very, very short of god. but... try going back and reading genesis in light of god wanting a companion, and see if you don't come to different conclusions abotu certain stories. did god really want blind obediend from abraham regarding isaac? or did he want to know if abraham had the balls to stand up to up him when we demanded something outrageous? did god want adam's obedience with the tree? or did he want to know if adam would choose knowledge over ignorance?
remember job -- satan accuses job of being god's fairweather friend. but who claims responsibility at the end? it isn't satan.
Probably, in the ancient past Lucifer (Latin - Day Star)
try again: "lucifer, latin: bearer of light." or as a proper noun, "the planet venus." compare this with the rather banal sounding hebrew, hillel, which simply means "glorious." actually, that's the name of the jewish student union on my university campus. maybe i should point out that their name means "the devil." or... maybe it doesn't mean "the devil" at all.
served as this counterpart. Now God is making an example out of this one who rebelled and established a kingdom contrary to God's kingdom.
but there is no biblical story of the rebellion of satan, except the one in revelation. and THAT one occurs at the end of times. what we do have, however, is that precise story in paradise lost. oh, and the book of mormon. it's there too. just not the bible.
What Satan wanted to do to Job was far beyond simply prosecuting him. Most state prosecutors do not also get involved in torturing the witness.
job was not a witness. job has on trial. perhaps unfairly, but that happens. the circumstances of the dispute required job's blessings to removed and reversed, to see if he was honest. do you have another way that should be tested?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 12-25-2007 6:10 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2007 7:03 AM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 156 of 301 (443606)
12-26-2007 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
12-25-2007 11:57 PM


Re: a history of the devil
I have never read Paradise Lost either, but its amazing how that same basic dogma has carried over from 1667! I don't really see the definite connection by reading the Bible alone....its always what was taught to me...by Pastors.
yes, now the trick is to put it out of your head, and read the bible as if paradise lost had never been written. because when john of patmos was writting, it hadn't.
now, if you want to claim that paradise lost (or perhaps the book of mormon) is inspired scripture and god's holy word...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 12-25-2007 11:57 PM Phat has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 157 of 301 (443628)
12-26-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by arachnophilia
12-26-2007 12:14 AM


Re: a history of the devil
and "no other gods." and "no idols." and "no polyester." etc. they're all lines in the sand, all 613 of 'em. we break every one. you break them. i break them. we are not god -- we cannot be god. and god understands this. because the lord is loving and wise, he forgives us.
We do not have God delivering to Adam 613 laws. We do not see God delivering the law of Moses to the created man. We see a much simplier picture.
Adam is between two trees. One is the tree of life and the other is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We do not see the tree of the ten commandments or the tree of 613 commandments. We it is the tree life.
The one command that Adam has to obey is to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact it is not even written that he is specifically commanded to eat of the tree of life. It is there with all the other trees "good for food."
This may be hard for us to understand because Adam was in a state that we have never known. He was in a wonderful neutral state of innocency. In fact he was a "very good" yet neutral created being. Aside from God's blessing instructing him to guard the garden and replenish the earth with multiplication, we don't see God commanding him on 600 or more moral issues.
When he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sins and death entered into man. With him now fallen into the kingdom of Satan, creation underneath his dominion, somehow collapses with him into corruption.
Once he crossed the line and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - SIN entered into man.
er, no, by most peoples' counts (excluding jar) eating of the tree was sin in the first place. in other words, for man to disobey god, he had to already have been capable of sin.
You may have some ground to say that. And I can see some logical ground to believe that. However, where the Bible draws the line is where I limit my conception of the events. His guilt commenced from the eating of the forbidden tree.
Whereas you may reject the Apostle Paul's teaching, we Christians cannot do without it and Paul writes:
"Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned ... (Rom.5:12)
For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.
And the law entered in alongside that the offense might abound; but where sin abounded, grace has super-abounded ... (Rom. 5:19,20)
[/qs]
The specific act of disobedience which brought sin and death into the world is Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before that any pontentiality of sin seems not the issue. And we need not stir up an issue where none exists.
The Apostle Paul was used by this same God to "complete the word of God"
" ... His Body, which is the church; Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, the mystery hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints, to whom God will to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory. (Col. 24c-27)
God in Christ in the believers as the hope of glory was a mystery hidden in God from previous generations. The prophets did speak of the mystery. But the Apostle Paul was commissioned to complete the word of God. And in that completion he also writes that through one act of disobedience of Adam sin and death entered into the world.
This is the revelation that I must submit to and be limited by. There is a logic to your suggestion that there was a potential for Adam to sin. But going beyond into speculation about this will cause some confusion and lose of the truth which we clearly have.
By the way. You can see that the principle of one man's act influencing the standing of many others is reflective applied to "the second man" Christ. Through His act of obedience to His Father in the cross many are justified and constituted righteous.
but satan just isn't in the story.
We have a clear parting of ways at this point. This is the initial cosmic depature of the human race from the paradise of God and from the eternal purpose of God.
No underling was responsible for this. It was Satan who opposed the will of God. Any thought that it was just a naughty snake and Satan comes along latter to join the mischief I will not accept.
This was a pivotal point in the history of the univese. Just like the betrayal of Jesus by Judas, it says that Satan entered into Judas to do the job right himself. So also in this pivotal junction it was the main enemy of God who came to derail God's eternal purpose.
their's a rather intelligent serpent, but no satan. in fact, it seems like the snake had probably already eaten of the tree. and we can't even say that was wrong of him. we don't know if god commanded him not to. but apparently telling man about it was the line for him.
Just because he is not pinpointed as Satan in that story does not conceal him. You acknowledge that the 600 plus commandments of the law is not revealed there in Genesis. You should see the reasonableness of saying that everything we know about the Devil is not covered there either. Details are provided latter.
The Bible is written that way. Genesis doesn't tell us about the ten commandments or the priesthood. God provides more details in subsequent books. In Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 He provides some poetic prophetic utterances which expose the ancient history of a main rebellious angelic creature. This one became Satan.
"it's lonely at the top."
Maybe so. In a vanacular sense you may have hit it.
Of course from eternity to eternity God is triune and is the divine "Us" who said "Let Us make man ...". And we are told that God is love in the New Testament.
He apparantly wants to catch up man into this eternal incorporation.
Yet God retains the essential Godhead of authority and Sourcedom (to coin a new word perhaps) of the relationship.
[qs] look, i'm not disagreeing with you. but as the point stands, satan is merely the prosecution. and man currently falls very, very short of god. but... try going back and reading genesis in light of god wanting a companion, and see if you don't come to different conclusions abotu certain stories. did god really want blind obediend from abraham regarding isaac? or did he want to know if abraham had the ..." [/b]
It is evident that in God''s providence He is using Satan. I do not object to the thought of God using the Devil like a mad dog on a leash. However, there is nothing friendly about the relationship.
I mean I stop short of any suggestion that Satan is a cooperating attorney simply and obediently doing God's work as a counter arguer. That is as if Perry Mason and the district attorney are on pretty friendly terms.
Satan is a murder. Exodus says that God will have war with Amelek continually because he is "a hand against the throne".
Satan is the original "hand against the throne". His challenge to God's authority is not friendly. His murders are not friendly. He would have torn Job limb from limb in hatred.
He sought to set his own throne above that of God. He would be like the Most High. Yes we do see God speaking rather cooly to this Advasary in the book of Job. That is only because God is still in control of the situation and cannot be defeated. It is not because God and Satan have an amiable relationship.
God will cast him into the eternal fire when he has finished using him.
remember job -- satan accuses job of being god's fairweather friend. but who claims responsibility at the end? it isn't satan.
Satan brings accusation against God that God plays favorites with Job. You see to Satan's way of thinking God who loves man, should be in total rejection of man. He cannot stand that God still loves this sinful creature. God would not give up this fallen man.
Satan taunts God and accuses Him of unrighteousness because God still cares for man. Have you grasped how great God's love is and how wicked Satan's hatred is?
On one hand Satan draws men to transgress against God. Then he turns around and accuses God of playing favorites with these sinners. And he also wispers to the sinners that they could never be of any use to God because they have sinned, sinned in reaction to Satan's temptations.
And someone want us to feel sorry for this "misunderstood" enemy whose hand is "against the throne" of God?
try again: "lucifer, latin: bearer of light." or as a proper noun, "the planet venus." compare this with the rather banal sounding hebrew, hillel, which simply means "glorious." actually, that's the name of the jewish student union on my university campus. maybe i should point out that their name means "the devil." or... maybe it doesn't mean "the devil" at all.
I like to be ambitious to minister life to people. It is wonderful to cooperate with God's eternal purpose to dispense divine life into man.
The purpose of our spiritual knowledge and biblical knowledge should aways be to feed people with the Spirit of life and shed light of truth to them that they may be delivered from the power of Satan to the kingdom of the Son of God's love.
job was not a witness. job has on trial. perhaps unfairly, but that happens. the circumstances of the dispute required job's blessings to removed and reversed, to see if he was honest. do you have another way that should be tested?
You should notice this about Job - It is very firmly entrenched in the concept of man that if he does good God will bless, if he does bad God will punish. This was the repeated argument of Job's three "comforters".
They could not believe that Job had not committed some secret sin. If Job was good God would bless him. If Job was evil God would bring misfortune.
In other words their understanding of God was filled up with the knowledge of good and evil. The dealing that God has over Job goes deeper than God rewarding Job's goodness and punishing Job's evil. This is what is so terribly perplexing to Job.
God had Job stripped of everything. Both his good (of which he had plenty) and his evil if they could find any, were stripped away from him. The answer for the question of why Job is suffering is really never given in the book of Job. God puts Job through this outragous trial only to spend a few chapters scolding him that he really doesn't know ANYTHING.
However, I think the answer to why "good people" suffer under God's sovereignty is found in the book of Second Corinthians and perhaps some other New Testament epistles. There we see the apostles suffering such that they are drivien out of self reliance totally to trust the God who raises His Son from the dead.
I am not sure of your popint above. But Job as well as some other portions of the Bible make it clear that everything is under God's providencial governing. It cannot happen unless He allows it. In one sense He is doing all these things with and to mankind out of His sovereign providence.
We usually do not like that idea. The absolute authority of God is something that we usually complain about. We want God to care for us and help us. We do not want Him to be the to total and absolute authority in the universe ruling from His infallible throne.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by arachnophilia, posted 12-26-2007 12:14 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by iano, posted 12-30-2007 7:20 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2008 11:23 PM jaywill has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 158 of 301 (444047)
12-27-2007 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
12-24-2007 11:48 AM


Re: Uh ... "BIBLE STUDY ???"
jaywill responds to me:
quote:
Maybe I can or can't. But right now maybe I WON'T!
Which means, effectively, "No." Without any way to justify your assertions outside of Christian dogma, we're left wondering why you think a Jewish text should be so bastardized.
quote:
What DO you mean by Christian Dogma anyway?
I mean tenets of Christian theology. Christianity is not the same thing as Judaism. They do not worship the same god. Christianity makes claims that Judaism doesn't.
To pretend that a Jewish text should twist itself to appease Christian sensibilities is disingenuous at best.
quote:
Right now I am not willing to intertane your concept of leaving out the New Testament in a careful analysis of Genesis.
I'm not surprised. Your interpretation has no justification to be found anywhere within the Jewish texts. Therefore, the only way to do it is to insist upon non-Jewish impositions upon a text that was written by Jews, for Jews, and can only be understood within a Jewish context.
And even then, there isn't much there to justify it.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2007 11:48 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by jaywill, posted 12-28-2007 12:35 PM Rrhain has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 159 of 301 (444126)
12-28-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Rrhain
12-27-2007 11:17 PM


Re: Uh ... "BIBLE STUDY ???"
Which means, effectively, "No." Without any way to justify your assertions outside of Christian dogma, we're left wondering why you think a Jewish text should be so bastardized.
There is a word in the Bible that transcends the Jewish word. That is the word of God. And what you call "Christian Dogma" I call the revelation of God to the world.
The Hebrew Bible has to be the word of God. No people would ever write such an unflattering history about themselves and their relationship with their "national god."
The Bible is too candid, too frank, and too honest to be assumed as a national book. A Jewish book written to Jews, you say. On one hand a agree that Moses and the prophets were Jews. No question about that. But look at some of the things they wrote.
The murder and adultery of their national hero king David. Their forefather Abraham cowardly tryng to pass off his wife as his sister to save his neck. Isaac his son doing the same thing. Have you read Deut. chapter 28? You might make a case that it appears the Hebrew Bible was written by some enemies of the Jews.
My point is that this Hebrew Bible is the word of God. And the New Testament (which the Old Testament promised would come about) I also take as the word of God. I take the whole 66 books as the word of God. And you can say basterdized or bitchized or any other word you'd like to use. I want to know the revelation of the whole book.
Now, it probably escaped you. But by going into the Gospels I did show what was the attitude about Satan at the time Jesus was teaching. That is not exactly the same as Christian doctrine. That is history. They charged Jesus with casting our demons by the prince of demons. Jesus understood them to mean that He was casting out Satan's hosts by the power of Satan.
I didn't see them dispute that was their meaning. So you would probably say that those Jews were "bastardizing" the Hebrew Bible also.
I mean tenets of Christian theology. Christianity is not the same thing as Judaism. They do not worship the same god. Christianity makes claims that Judaism doesn't.
If we do not have the same God then we're really in trouble, aren't we.
However, what we have in the New Testament is that same God Who has become incarnate, lived, died a redemptive death, and rose from the dead, and imparted Himself into His believers as the Holy Spirit - the life giving Spirit.
He said that He would inscribed His laws into our inward parts and write them on our hearts. We believe that this means His imaparted something living of Himself into living people. Life can be inscribed into life. He imparted His law of life into the receivers of the crucified and resurrected Messiah Jesus.
And though you may utterly reject this now, there is no question in my mind that Israel as a nation will one day recognize this Yeshua as their Messiah which they missed. It is the one inevitable irony of human history.
The total universal vindication of Jesus of Nazareth with Israel is, I am sure, and inevitable climax of the history of the Jews. Then we Gentiles who have believed in thier previously rejected Messiah, will watch the natural branches grafted again into their own olive tree.
That will be a glorious time. Israel will come to recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
To pretend that a Jewish text should twist itself to appease Christian sensibilities is disingenuous at best.
"Basterdize" ... "disingenuous" ... these insults to not move me.
I want the light that the New Testament apostles and prophets had concerning all that was written before. This is today. I am not in 4000 years ago. What God spoke to those ages was for that time. What He has highlighted for His seekers today is deeper and appropriate to this stage of His ongoing and unfolding eternal purpose.
Perhaps had you been one of the captives taken to Babylon you may have accused Daniel of basterdizing the Scriptures also because of the visions God had shown him concerning the prophecies about the Jewish nation and the world.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Rrhain, posted 12-27-2007 11:17 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2007 5:40 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 160 of 301 (444132)
12-28-2007 12:59 PM


"New Things I am Telling You" - God
"I am, Jehovah, that is My name, and I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to idols.
Indeed, the former things have come to pass, and new things I am telling you ; Before they spring forth I will let you hear [them]"
(Isa. 42:8,9)
" Do not call to mind the former things, Nor consider the things of old. Indeed I am doing a new thing; It will spring forth' Do you not know it? " (Isa. 43:18,19)
God warns His people of old that He will do new things. Sometimes they may seem to eclipse the former things He did. This is not my interpretation of a passage. This is my application of a passage to illuminate upon God's ways.
Don't anyone come back to me and say that the passage does not have anything to do with the New Testament. It has to do with the ways of God, generally.
God incarnate as the Son of God, the Messiah, was one of these new things. Some of the Jews were ready and opened to see it. They gave us The New Testament.
The same God was acting. The same God was working. The same God was speaking. I take into account these new things that Yahweh did. I hold to them to illuminate upon His ways in the former times.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 161 of 301 (444378)
12-29-2007 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by jaywill
12-28-2007 12:35 PM


Re: Uh ... "BIBLE STUDY ???"
jaywill responds to me:
quote:
There is a word in the Bible that transcends the Jewish word. That is the word of God.
But it's the Jewish god. What makes you think Christianity understands the word of the Jewish god?
quote:
My point is that this Hebrew Bible is the word of God.
Yes. The Jewish god. What makes you think Christianity understands the word of the Jewish god?
quote:
But by going into the Gospels I did show what was the attitude about Satan at the time Jesus was teaching.
Ahem. The gospels were not written anywhere near the time of Jesus.
quote:
I want the light that the New Testament apostles and prophets had concerning all that was written before.
But it has no connection to it. Christianity does not recongize the same god as Judaism does. Therefore, what makes you think Christianity could understand the word of the Jewish god?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by jaywill, posted 12-28-2007 12:35 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by jaywill, posted 12-29-2007 1:14 PM Rrhain has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 162 of 301 (444435)
12-29-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Rrhain
12-29-2007 5:40 AM


Re: Uh ... "BIBLE STUDY ???"
But it's the Jewish god. What makes you think Christianity understands the word of the Jewish god?
The term "Christianity" is not a positive term with me.
I do not consider myself a spokesman or a defender of "Christianity".
I do not consider myself an apologist for "Christianity". But I understand what you are getting at and I will answer you something.
The term "Christianity" means a lot of different things to different people. Some people think of the Spanish Inquisition when they think of Christianity. Others think of the Ku Klux Klan when they think of "Christianity". Others think of thousands of sects, denominations, divisions endlessly dividing one from another as "Christianity". Still others think of a political party when they think of "Christianity".
So I do not know what runs through your mind when you demand that I step forward and speak on behalf of "Christianity". I am for CHRIST. I am not for any "ANITY".
Let me rephrase you question. What makes me think non-Jewish people who receive Christ can know anything about Jewish religion?
But let's consider some instances in history.
The Moabitess Ruth surely did not know the Jewish religion as well as Naomi her mother-in-law. In fact Ruth came from a people's whom Yahweh had forbidden to enter into the congregation of the Lord for 10 generations. Yet there is one whole book in the Hebrew Bible named for this Moabitess woman. She sought God's people and gave herself to their God.
Rehab, and the whole "Whore house" if you will in the city of Jericho also didn't know much about the Jewish religion. She knew enough that the God of the Jews was coming with an army to Canaan to punish the people for thier human sacrifices and idol worship and horrible sexual habits.
Rehab the harlot cooperated with the Hebrew spies and was spared and the whole "whore house" if you will, with her relatives. Rehab the harlot knew enough how to be saved. One of the Hebrew soldiers married Rehab the harlot from a city cursed by God forever. And she became a great ancestress of David the king.
The Nenevites didn't know much about the Jewish religion. They had a human consience though. And they knew enough to repent at the preaching of the Jewish prophet Jonah.
There is only one God. And he chose the Jews to be reveivers of His revelation, custodians of His first covenant, and the nation from which the Savior of the world would be born.
We Gentile dogs have a God created human conscience. And those of us who have believed in the Jewish Messiah - the Savior of the world have received mercy from God to at least know that we are sinners in need of His gracious offer of redemption and salvation.
We know God the Righteous. We know His Son who lived and died and rose again that we may be saved. And temprarily God seems to want to provoke His people the Jews to jealousy for a season. They broke His heart by rejecting the Messiah Whom He sent.
We also know that the days of the Gentiles coming to the gospel of grace will come to a close. God will turn again to establish the kingdom of Israel. We believe that those individual Jews who turn, repent, and believe in Jesus (Yeshua) are getting in on a wonderful thing early. Today Jews may turn to Jesus on an individual basis.
The day will soon come when Israel will turn again to the Son of God on a national basis. And we Gentile dogs who eat the crumbs underneath the table will rejoice and exult that God's nation Israel has woken up from their long tragic sleep of unbelief.
Ahem. The gospels were not written anywhere near the time of Jesus.
I don't agree with your premise to begin with. And secondly, I don't think that God is incompetent and careless so that He would allow the crucial message of the Son to be lost under a plethora of human mistakes. No, God is not a dummy. The hairs on your head are numbered. Why should God be careless about the words of Jesus?
I believe that the life, death, resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth were of the activity of God. And I don't believe that God is so dumb that the message got lost because someone or someones just couldn't seem to recall what was done and said.
The faulty , error prone, "bad memory" - "TOO Long ago to recall accurately" New Testament theory, I reject. The evidence for such is not strong. And I don't think that God is not able to preserve the most crucial testimony of the life of His Son and His original apostles.
Perhaps, you are HOPING that it all got LOST and mixed up. That is ofen the skeptic's wishful thinking in his unbelief of the Gospel.
But it has no connection to it. Christianity does not recongize the same god as Judaism does. Therefore, what makes you think Christianity could understand the word of the Jewish god?
You know that God who said "Let there be light" in Genesis? You know that God that said to Moses "I AM THAT I AM"? That God is the MAN JESUS.
I don't know if I can make it more emphatic. That God who is all throughout the Old Testament is the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit God. He is one God. And He has an incredible operation to dispense His life into man.
That God that said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Gen.1:26), who said "The man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil..." (Gen. 3:22), who said "Come, Let Us go down and there confound their language (Gen.11:7), Who also said "Who shall I send? Who will go for Us?" (Isa. 6:8) and who spoke many many other things and did many other things in the Old Testament - THAT God is the man Jesus Who was Son of God and born of the virgin Mary.
That Man is Yahweh, God Almighty come to us as a born child and a Son given as the Eternal Father (See Isa. 9:6).
That Man who was tired, wept, went to the toilet (or whatever they used in those days), who hungered, who slept, who was sinless, who healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the people, cleansed the lepers, was unfairly betrayed, crucified and nailed to a cross, and in three days got up out of the grave to be Lord of all, THAT Man is the One True God and the God of the Jews.
And He commands that we BELIEVE into Him. And it is for this reason that they cried out "Crucify Him!" because He taught and ACTED like that God.
"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is NO GOD." [my emphasis] (Isa.44:6)
" ... And you are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Or is there any [other] Rock? I do not know of [any]. (Isa. 44:8)
"Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else. I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return,
That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear.
It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength. To Him shall [men] come,
And all those who are burning in anger against Him shall be ashamed. In Jehovah all the seed of Israel shall be justified and shall glory." (Isa. 45:22-25)
"Was it not I, Jehovah? And there is no God besides Me; A righteous God and Savior, And there is no one except Me." (Isa. 45:21b)
"Remember the former things of old, That I am God and there is no one else; I am God and there is no one like Me, Who declares the end from the beginning And the things which have not been done from ancient times, Saying, My counsel will stand, and all My desire I will accomplish." (Isa. 46:9-10)
"I was angry with My people; I profaned My inheritance, And I delivered them into your hand. You have not shown any mercy to them;
You have made your yoke very heavy upon the elderly. You have said, I will be a queen forever; You did not put these things into your heart; You did not remember the end of them." (Isa. 47:6,7)
This is the one God and He became flesh and tabernacled among us in Jesus of Nazareth. He now gives His Holy Spirit to those who believe into the Son of God.
But I have installed My King upon Zion, My holy mountian. I will recount the decree of Jehovah;
He said to Me: You are My Son; Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give the nations as Your inheritance and the limits of the earth as Your possession.
You will break them with an iron rod; You will shatter them like a potter's vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be prudent; take admonition, O judges of the earth
Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
KISS THE SON Lest He be angry and you perish from the way; For His anger may suddenly be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him.
The mild and meek Jesus will not be so mild and meek in His second coming. But to those who think to exclude those who trusted in this God but were rebuffed by the Jews:
This first disciples were Jews as well as their Master Jesus - God become a man. These Jews did understand the Hebrew religion. and of the Jews who follow Jehovah's plan of salvation and suffer rejection because of it God says:
Hear the word of Jehovah, You who tremble at His word:
Your brothers who hate you, Who cast you out because of My name, said, Let Jehovah be glorified so that we may see your joy.
But they will be put to shame. (Isa 66:5)
So beware of casting out John, Peter, James, Paul and the other apostles thinking you are doing a service for God. You will end up being put to shame by God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Rrhain, posted 12-29-2007 5:40 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 3:15 AM jaywill has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 163 of 301 (444629)
12-30-2007 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by jaywill
12-29-2007 1:14 PM


Re: Uh ... "BIBLE STUDY ???"
jaywill responds to me:
quote:
Let me rephrase you question. What makes me think non-Jewish people who receive Christ can know anything about Jewish religion?
No, please don't. Leave it as it is:
What makes you think Christianity could understand the word of the Jewish god?
quote:
There is only one God.
Yep. And according to the Jews, it's the Jewish god.
Christians do not worship the same god as the Jews. Therefore, what makes you think Christianity could understand the word of the Jewish god?
quote:
And those of us who have believed in the Jewish Messiah
...who hasn't shown up yet. If he had, then all would have been fulfilled. It hasn't, therefore the Messiah hasn't arrived.
Which means Jesus wasn't the Messiah.
So we're back to the same question: What makes you think Christianity could understand the word of the Jewish god?
quote:
I don't agree with your premise to begin with.
You're entitled to your opinion.
You're not entitled to your facts. The texts of the New Testament were written decades if not centuries after the time of the events they supposedly document. Not a single first hand account exists.
quote:
You know that God who said "Let there be light" in Genesis? You know that God that said to Moses "I AM THAT I AM"? That God is the MAN JESUS.
Not according to Judaism. And who would know better about the god of the Jews than the Jews? The god that said, "Let there be light," was the god of the Jews.
What makes you think Christianity could understand the word of the Jewish god?
quote:
So beware of casting out John, Peter, James, Paul and the other apostles thinking you are doing a service for God. You will end up being put to shame by God.
BZZZZT!
I'm so sorry, jaywill. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, jaywill has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, jaywill gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by jaywill, posted 12-29-2007 1:14 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 12-30-2007 7:10 AM Rrhain has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 164 of 301 (444652)
12-30-2007 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Rrhain
12-30-2007 3:15 AM


Re: Uh ... "BIBLE STUDY ???"
Rrhain writes:
Not according to Judaism. And who would know better about the god of the Jews than the Jews?
Adam perhaps? He wasn't a Jew. He certainly would have known about God in a unique way that only one other Jew I can think of could match or exceed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 3:15 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Rrhain, posted 12-30-2007 9:32 PM iano has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 165 of 301 (444653)
12-30-2007 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by jaywill
12-26-2007 7:03 AM


An interlude..
Jaywill writes:
Adam is between two trees. One is the tree of life and the other is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We do not see the tree of the ten commandments or the tree of 613 commandments. We it is the tree life.
The one command that Adam has to obey is to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In fact it is not even written that he is specifically commanded to eat of the tree of life. It is there with all the other trees "good for food."
This may be hard for us to understand because Adam was in a state that we have never known. He was in a wonderful neutral state of innocency. In fact he was a "very good" yet neutral created being. Aside from God's blessing instructing him to guard the garden and replenish the earth with multiplication, we don't see God commanding him on 600 or more moral issues.
When he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil sins and death entered into man. With him now fallen into the kingdom of Satan, creation underneath his dominion, somehow collapses with him into corruption.
Once he crossed the line and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - SIN entered into man.
Hi Jaywill.
I was wondering if you would comment on the following notions.
1) That before Adam ate of the fruit he was amorality. That is: he no concept of right and wrong to apply to his choosing. That is: he was a consequential being omly and only had the consequences of his choice to weigh-up in his choosing ("surely die" vs. "be like God")
2) That on eating of the fruit he became a moral being. That is, he acquired a conscience. The conscience being that of God which would immediately go to work to counter the effect of the sin that had simultaneously entered Adam.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2007 7:03 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jaywill, posted 12-30-2007 8:59 PM iano has not replied

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