The first 3 chapters of Genesis

And where exactly did I say that they were not punished?What I have said is

1. there is no FALL in the GOE story.
2. they are banned from the GOE because God fears they will eat from the Tree of Life.
3. that the GOE story is a "Just So Story" that explains why
   • snakes have no legs.
   • childbirth seems more difficult for humans than for other animals.
   • people fear snakes and kill them when seen.
   • humans farm instead of foraging.

Please stop misrepresenting what others say.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Hell yes. LOL

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sorry robin but your reply is unrelated to the question I asked.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, perhaps I can explain why there was no Fall yet again.First, before eating from the Tree of Knowledge Adam & Eve, like beasts, were incapable of either sin or morality. When a beast suddenly turns on another, for example during mating season, and hurts, harms or even kills the other it is neither moral nor immoral. The beast has no knowledge of either right or wrong and is simply behaving normally.When GOD told Adam (and presumable Adam told Eve) they were morally like a one year old. They had no concept that even obedience to GOD was different than obeying any other authority figure. When later another authority figure, the serpent, tells Eve to taste the fruit, she does so, just as the one year old will take instruction from the most recent adult authority figure.This is born out in two other passages and the whole series of events after the two become aware of right and wrong. Their first thoughts are then "Ooops, we screwed up" and they hide themselves, and even try to shift blame (She told me to eat it; the serpent said it would be okay). The result is that Adam & Eve become more like God than the other beasts.Genesis 3: Note that God says directly that they have become more like Gods and that because of that, they must be sent away from the Tree of Life and kept away from it. Original Sin is simply not a concept that all accept. I do not believe that there is any such thing, and neither did all of the Jewish scholars that lived with the story for far longer than any Christians. Again, reading the story in Genesis I find nothing that says that conditions within the Garden were not changed. GOD says: Cursed is the ground. Not cursed is the ground outside the Garden, but cursed is the ground.The tale of the Garden of Eden is IMHO a "Just So Story". It is presented as a way of explaining certain facts of life, just as the tale in Genesis 1 explains why we have a seven day week and take the sabbath off. Actually the Tree of Life is mentioned earlier.Genesis 2: and it is specifically the Tree of Knowledge that Adam is told to leave alone while he is told that he may freely eat from the Tree of Life.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It is the inconsistencies like this that make it obvious that it is not a literal story but rather a folk tale.There IS though a valid reason IMHO for both of the Genesis Creation tales to be included as well as the detailed Garden of Eden myth.Since the title of this thread is "The first 3 chapters of Genesis" it might be worthwhile actually looking at them instead of just dancing around Robins fantasies.Creation in Genesis refers to the "relationship" between GOD and what was created. Genesis 1 describes the transcendance and otherness of GOD. In Genesis 1 we see a GOD that is sure, that moves with no hesitation, that creates simply by the act of creation, that looks on what is created and finds it "good'. It also serves to establish the seven day week, and the day devoted to rest and also worship.Genesis 2 is entirely different. Genesis 2 describes an intimate GOD, one directly living and dealing with individual creation. The God of Genesis 2 is a personal God, not aloof like the God of Genesis 1, personal and yet human, hesitant, sometimes unsure. The God of Genesis 2 is far more like other Gods of the period, very human, unsure, sometimes fearful, making mistakes.Genesis 2 establishes the single biggest thing they saw as different about humans, it explains why we know right from wrong, why we are charged to try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong.It goes on to explain the main things about life. It explains why snakes have no legs, why we fear and kill snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than other animals, why people must farm instead of foraging like the other animals.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There had to be some reason that the redactors of the Bible included two mutually exclusive stories, and also reversed the chronological order, kept them separate instead of merging the tales as they did with other parts of Genesis or Exodus.In the case of Genesis the redactors place the newer tale first. It is a more sophisticated model than the older tale seen in Genesis 2. Why? Why not merge them together as they did in the other places?IMHO the different pictures of God are what is important. Each one shows a facet of God, an important thing we need to understand, that GOD is both Transcendant and Personal, Distant and Near.They presented the Transcendant GOD first, and then transition to the Personal GOD that walks with us, talks with us.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Exactly.They handled things different in other areas, the Flood myth includes at least two stories merged together, same with Exodus, but here, at the beginning they deal with the essence of the issue, with the very Nature of GOD. Here, they felt it so important that they included the two mutually exclusive stories, even though they could see the inconsistencies and conflicting character.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think the issue of innocence is very important. It forms the basics for everything that follows. It is the big difference, the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that is the basis of Theology. Only if Man is capable of knowing right from wrong is there any basis for the rest of the Bible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't think anyone has ever disagreed that that is what those verses say. The question then moves beyond that simple point.The topic here is The first 3 chapters of Genesis. That seems to go beyond a few verses in that last of the three chapters.The thing that I and others have discussed is whether there was a Fall or some Original Sin. IMHO the reading of Genesis, particularly the first three chapters, does not support the concept of either a Fall or Original Sin.The story goes that Adam and Eve eat some fruit that lets them know the difference between Good and Evil, even though God had told them not to eat from that Tree. God then punishes them for that act.The key point is that tale if taken at face value makes God look pretty bad. Until Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would have no way of knowing they should obey God as opposed to anyone else. They were like infants, they had no sense of morality or what the threat of death meant. They were completely innocent and so to punish them for disobeying when they just did not have the capability to know right from wrong would be unjust.The redactors of the Bible were not stupid, they could see the problems just as they saw the inconsistencies between the creation myth in Genesis 1 and that in Genesis 2. So why include it?IMHO they saw that the story was more important than the inconsistencies.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

My problem is not so much with the idea of a fall if it describes a change, but with "THE FALL" as you describe above, with the concept of what is described in Genesis leading to some Orgiginal Sin that is then passed down and has the consequence of everyone being damned unless they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And I base that on what is said in Genesis and the rest of the Bible as well as external observation of the world we live in and on critical examination of just what such a theology says about God. But Genesis specifically says that Adam can eat from ANY tree in the garden except the ONE tree, the Tree of Knowledge.From Genesis 2 Note verse 16:

quote:

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16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;

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Any Tree.GOD then goes on in the next verse to exempt one tree, the Tree of Knowledge. GOD specifically says that is the one tree that Adam is not allowed to eat from.

quote:

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17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

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I do not make the assumption that GOD would not mind Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Life, that is what the story says. It says "You can eat the fruit of any tree except one specific tree."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not at all sure I understand how you can get that? I don't presume there is any precision and exactness, it is a fable. But I also do not assume that what IS there is not really there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm sure my position is not consistent with many peoples view of what constitutes mainstream Christianity. I have no problem with that. Each individual has their own view of both their religion and what Christianity should be.All I can do is present the best case for my position. I cannot be held responsible for their conceptions. Hopefully they too will present their best case for their opinions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But I do NOT argue that my position is more than my position. I have been very clear about that. If folk believe that my position is incorrect, they are certainly encouraged to support their position. I will continue to support my position as I have in the responses to the points you raised.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I beg your pardon? LOL Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely. And if the tale is taken as being literal and factual, then the ONLY possible conclusion is that God is both an idiot and very cruel.If the tale as told in Genesis is literally true and factual God punishes Adam and Eve unjustly just as it would be unjust to punish a one year old for puting what they find in their mouths.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion